This is unacceptable....

[waittilnextyear]

I just feel the strength of this mode is that it's a sandbox. If you want to collect, you can. If you want to compete, you can. If you want to spend dough and win, you can. If you want to run with a theme, you can.

Trying to enact legislation to eliminate other styles of play that I don't personally like would be a mistake. We're not actually talking exploits here, but just other styles. There's a distinction there.

[Westheim]

Here we go yet again?

Originally Posted by dkgo

each tier level should have a cap for number of gold/diamond/perfect players

boom problem solved

This is plainly and simply impossible to implement in the PT live card era. A team at any level might be perfectly legal with the max amount of high-Level cards allowed on Sunday, then the live card updates strike on Monday, said team gains a Diamond or two, goes over the cap, and now is an illegal team at its level. And now? Does the user get banned? Cards are auto-sold? Forced roster moves by a roster AI that is challenged under the best of circumstances in the vanilla OOTP game?

[dkgo]

ok, a roster can be grandfathered in sunday night before promotion/relegation/live updates but the next time you hit the submit button it must be in compliance (basically the same sanity check message it does now)

not that hard to come up with

[atabakin]

Why would OOTP put caps on each level? I'm just starting and in Bronze, for example. I want to spend a lot of money to get the best team possible. Oops, I can't use a bunch of great players. I don't spend that money and move on to something else. OOTP loses my business.

[dkgo]

ideally it is in combination with scrapping the one level promotion/relegation model

you start and spend a bunch of money on diamond and perfect players, then on monday you get put straight into a diamond league where your team belongs

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by dkgo

ideally it is in combination with scrapping the one level promotion/relegation model

you start and spend a bunch of money on diamond and perfect players, then on monday you get put straight into a diamond league where your team belongs

So your solution is "pay to win" even harder?

[X3NEIZE]

Originally Posted by Westheim

So your solution is "pay to win" even harder?

Pretty sure his solution is separating the P2W players in their own league....

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by X3NEIZE

Pretty sure his solution is separating the P2W players in their own league....

Which the devs have said ad nauseum will never happen, but I guess it's fun to have a fantasy if that's your thing.

[X3NEIZE]

Originally Posted by atabakin

Which the devs have said ad nauseum will never happen, but I guess it's fun to have a fantasy if that's your thing.

I agree with this, but the greater point that we're trying to make is that we need some solution to having stacked teams, slot their iron level players only to tank them down to Iron league and start racking points on their way up.... and once up rinse and repeat.... see the issue?

It's not a small issue, it can ruin the game given enough teams doing this.

I don't have the solution, but I know we need one. The only thing I can think off is give the ability to lock on a league with certain penalties, like the inability to make more than x changes per season and lock the tier cards allowed for the team.

The perfect solution is to do what other games out there do (FIFA Ultimate Team or MLB The Show) where you have a pool of players and have the ability to create multiple teams, then you would enroll to a particular season with a certain set of rules (Iron players only, etc).
In other words, if you want to play on the main season, your team has to meet a certain criteria (average rating based on the tier league, for example) if you don't meet the criteria you are disqualified for the season.

This would prevent people from tanking on purpose or by design.... Again I know there are holes with any ideas, but we need them if we're going to make this game fair for everyone, and this is coming from someone who's team is strong, i'm not crying, I want to make sure the great teams hover on Perfect Leagues and the others distribute in the lower leagues according to the available roster pool they have.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by Westheim

So your solution is "pay to win" even harder?

I am at a complete loss as to how you reached that interpretation of the post

I think that instead of promotion and relegation every week teams should be assigned into an appropriate tier based on the composition of their roster. Exactly how is TBD.

During that week there are some general limits to keep the competitive balance intact (nothing that would restrict anyone playing the game in a fair way but would prevent abuse).

The difference between p2w and f2p is still the same as it is now. All the teams are mixed together but it will take a f2p team longer to be competitive at the top.

Issues this solves:

Tanking from the high levels

Sandbagging low levels to rack up easy PP

Legitimate low level players getting discouraged by whales in their bronze division

A new whale having to wait five seasons to get to a competitive level

[uschi_baerchen]

Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr

By the way, consider this: Day 1 of Iron Tournies. Ace has already figured out how to make the best possible Iron teams. He has also cross-trained the cards to play multiple positions. He dominates said tournies with his combined expertise in the subject and best Iron card quality in the entire PT universe. He makes hundreds of thousands of PP off his Iron tourney rewards.

He may be outsmarting us all, but instead we've got calls to ban him from the game because he loses too much.

You are correct. My Position is: let anybody do what he wants, let him have fun, i shall take care of my own fun regardless. My and the other anybodies aims might differ, but who cares?


I remember when a few month ago in pt19 Teams owning trout AND sale AND degroom AND Betts AND Lindor were called superwhales. Now it simply Comes down to the following:


1. they got their superwhaleplayers via real Money for about 15.000 PP less each than these cost now
2. These superwhaleplayers are really given their Performance the cheapest Players in the whole pt19
3. It is insane to buy any Player who will replaced by the superwhaleplayers eventually

[HRBaker]

Here's a good scenario to discuss. Player wants to start over. On a Sunday, he sells off his entire roster either directly or through the AH and collects some value in pps.

He then either uses this balance and/or adds money to it to buy packs and rebuilds a team ready for Monday morning.

This is basically a "Reset".

It's hard to argue that this is a problem other than the new team will find it's correct level after a couple seasons.

[X3NEIZE]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

Here's a good scenario to discuss. Player wants to start over. On a Sunday, he sells off his entire roster either directly or through the AH and collects some value in pps.

He then either uses this balance and/or adds money to it to buy packs and rebuilds a team ready for Monday morning.

This is basically a "Reset".

It's hard to argue that this is a problem other than the new team will find it's correct level after a couple seasons.

As someone who plays with the auction house by buying/selling... it's not that easy to sell for good deals.... the market is nowhere near as dynamic as you think. You can't just sell players and take loses.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by X3NEIZE

As someone who plays with the auction house by buying/selling... it's not that easy to sell for good deals.... the market is nowhere near as dynamic as you think. You can't just sell players and take loses.

True. I usually get about 80% of what I spent on any particular player, but an owner wanting to reset might be willing to take some losses AND add monies to get a new team.

[Goliathus]

One problem with the reset suggestion is that...what about the collectors? If I were a collector, I am not selling cards. Am I just stuck on perfect then? Or be reported for tanking cuz I want to try a weaker lineup?

Here's how I would do a hard reset -- the dev can invent a freezer/museum(highly doubt they would, just throwing stuffs up for discussion) where you can keep cards in your collection but locks them for 10-20 weeks. In the time period, those players cannot be taken off the museum to be used in the league roster no matter what. Maybe make them tournament legal though since tournament is different than league. Then, have a button named reset. If you tick that, your team will be sent down to iron on the next season and all your owned cards are in the freezer. Maybe give the players 6 "reset packs" to begin with, these packs will not give players above silver to prevent reset abuse. Congratz, now it's like you had a brand new account. It's not immune to abuse though. A rich fellow can just re-buy cards and dominate again if he wants to. A team full of gold should be enough to dominate the iron level. Also have a cooldown on the reset button, maybe same as the freezing period.

------------------------------------------------

As for the purpose of tanking, it's clearly not to farm PP. Seriously, what you get from PP is peanuts to a whale. I am with old timer on this one, no f***ing way the whales are tanking to farm PP. Whales essentially exchange money for (1)speed of progress and (2)power. They are not here to play some patience, farming long game. That's for the F2P.

However, there are pitiful people who are enjoy dominating other players, no matter the skill gap, and that, IMO, is the real reason why tanking isn't allowed. In single player games, there are players who used cheats or trainers to feel like they are dominating the AI even if they aren't good in the game. In multiplayer games, there are people who made "toons" or "smurfs" account just to bully the newbies cuz it's fun for them, like dominating 30:0 in CSGO isn't fun for me if it's not against equally skilled opponents, but some people totally enjoy killing some noobs 30 times so they made smurf account to do so. I see tankers to have that mentality and that's why they tank. Screw getting stuck being a .500 in say, Diamond, when I can get tank down to Silver, beyotch-slap my opposition and have insane numbers(which apparently gives a lot of players excitement, no matter the context). If such things are legal, we might see many players doing this sort of tanking -- tank down to silver, dominate silver, either dominate the gold or if there's many other good teams, tank back down to silver. Repeat and have a playoff trophy almost every 2 weeks. I am sure that sounds more fun than getting stuck as a .500 team in diamond for 6 weeks in a row to some players. Not everyone seeks equal competition, some likes to win at all cost no matter the opponent. Like he would join a 8 years old baseball league as an adult if he's allowed to.

[X3NEIZE]

Originally Posted by Goliathus

One problem with the reset suggestion is that...what about the collectors? If I were a collector, I am not selling cards. Am I just stuck on perfect then? Or be reported for tanking cuz I want to try a weaker lineup?

Here's how I would do a hard reset -- the dev can invent a freezer/museum(highly doubt they would, just throwing stuffs up for discussion) where you can keep cards in your collection but locks them for 10-20 weeks. In the time period, those players cannot be taken off the museum to be used in the league roster no matter what. Maybe make them tournament legal though since tournament is different than league. Then, have a button named reset. If you tick that, your team will be sent down to iron on the next season and all your owned cards are in the freezer. Maybe give the players 6 "reset packs" to begin with, these packs will not give players above silver to prevent reset abuse. Congratz, now it's like you had a brand new account. It's not immune to abuse though. A rich fellow can just re-buy cards and dominate again if he wants to. A team full of gold should be enough to dominate the iron level. Also have a cooldown on the reset button, maybe same as the freezing period.

------------------------------------------------

As for the purpose of tanking, it's clearly not to farm PP. Seriously, what you get from PP is peanuts to a whale. I am with old timer on this one, no f***ing way the whales are tanking to farm PP. Whales essentially exchange money for (1)speed of progress and (2)power. They are not here to play some patience, farming long game. That's for the F2P.

However, there are pitiful people who are enjoy dominating other players, no matter the skill gap, and that, IMO, is the real reason why tanking isn't allowed. In single player games, there are players who used cheats or trainers to feel like they are dominating the AI even if they aren't good in the game. In multiplayer games, there are people who made "toons" or "smurfs" account just to bully the newbies cuz it's fun for them, like dominating 30:0 in CSGO isn't fun for me if it's not against equally skilled opponents, but some people totally enjoy killing some noobs 30 times so they made smurf account to do so. I see tankers to have that mentality and that's why they tank. Screw getting stuck being a .500 in say, Diamond, when I can get tank down to Silver, beyotch-slap my opposition and have insane numbers(which apparently gives a lot of players excitement, no matter the context). If such things are legal, we might see many players doing this sort of tanking -- tank down to silver, dominate silver, either dominate the gold or if there's many other good teams, tank back down to silver. Repeat and have a playoff trophy almost every 2 weeks. I am sure that sounds more fun than getting stuck as a .500 team in diamond for 6 weeks in a row to some players. Not everyone seeks equal competition, some likes to win at all cost no matter the opponent. Like he would join a 8 years old baseball league as an adult if he's allowed to.

Your solution is in line with what I stated before, a lock period is a great idea....

The bigger issue with the tanking is not really the PP farming but rather killing the game for people actually trying to build and compete with what they get. What is the point of someone trying to play small ball with whatever cards he can buy with PP if I end up in his Iron or Bronze league by "Playing Iron players" and then I slot all my perfects.... a few people doing this and guess what, it's not fun at all for that guy trying....

[Findest2001]

Originally Posted by atabakin

Why would OOTP put caps on each level? I'm just starting and in Bronze, for example. I want to spend a lot of money to get the best team possible. Oops, I can't use a bunch of great players. I don't spend that money and move on to something else. OOTP loses my business.

Because if they did so the whales would have to earn their ride to the top with skill, not deeper pockets. Their deeper pockets would help, but would not truly manifest itself until the higher levels. Deeper pockets would still help get rarer iron, bronze, silver cards, but not by a large enough margin where it's an automatic victory. As it stands right now, you spend money, you beat players who don't for at least 4 levels, holding f2p players down for longer.


I for one like the idea.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by dkgo

I am at a complete loss as to how you reached that interpretation of the post

I think that instead of promotion and relegation every week teams should be assigned into an appropriate tier based on the composition of their roster. Exactly how is TBD.

During that week there are some general limits to keep the competitive balance intact (nothing that would restrict anyone playing the game in a fair way but would prevent abuse).

The difference between p2w and f2p is still the same as it is now. All the teams are mixed together but it will take a f2p team longer to be competitive at the top.

Issues this solves:

Tanking from the high levels

Sandbagging low levels to rack up easy PP

Legitimate low level players getting discouraged by whales in their bronze division

A new whale having to wait five seasons to get to a competitive level

I agree with this. Not only do I agree, but it's also been proven to be a working formula elsewhere.


I also think naming the leagues by card tiers was not optimal because it attaches a stigma to it. By removing pro/rel and having a true ladder system, and going back to naming leagues the way it originally was at the start of PT19, along with having a dynamic leaderboard, I think a lot of things could look up for the better.


In a system like that, there's no real incentive to tank. And if there's no real incentive to tank, there's also no real incentive to spend so much time looking around your league to try to find someone who is having fun wrong.

[X3NEIZE]

Originally Posted by dkgo

I am at a complete loss as to how you reached that interpretation of the post

I think that instead of promotion and relegation every week teams should be assigned into an appropriate tier based on the composition of their roster. Exactly how is TBD.

During that week there are some general limits to keep the competitive balance intact (nothing that would restrict anyone playing the game in a fair way but would prevent abuse).

The difference between p2w and f2p is still the same as it is now. All the teams are mixed together but it will take a f2p team longer to be competitive at the top.

Issues this solves:

Tanking from the high levels

Sandbagging low levels to rack up easy PP

Legitimate low level players getting discouraged by whales in their bronze division

A new whale having to wait five seasons to get to a competitive level

I 100% like this idea.

[pappyzan]

Nothing's gonna change, everybody knows that right?