Some things I can handle...

BadVlad · 09-26-2003, 11:17 AM

...And some I can't. I could handle it when Taylor Buchholz (who had a 9 avoid runs, 9 avoid hits, 11 k's) couldn't get more than 10 wins or have an ERA under 5.50. I figured, hey, that's the joy of the game, right? All that potential.

But what I can't handle is the fact that no middle reliever, no matter how fantastic his ratings, can finish the season with an era below 4.75. I don't care how fantastic they look on paper, how great they've pitched for other teams. As soon as my Harrisburg Senators (formerly the Montreal Expos) sign him or trade for him, he's doomed.

It's now 2012 (started in 2003) and this has been consistent.

Am I going insane? Is it just "the game"? As a manager, do I have no freakin' clue how to use my bullpen?

Steve Kuffrey · 09-26-2003, 11:25 AM

I'd say there are several "possible" factors:

-Your ballpark.
-Your defense, especially up the middle.
-The way you use your pen.

draven085 · 09-26-2003, 11:28 AM

The roster set you are using could also be a factor in some of the results you are seeing. Relieves sometimes have very exaggerated L/R splits. Make sure you pay attention to them

BadVlad · 09-26-2003, 11:29 AM

I'd think that those factors (I do play in a small park and my up the middle defense leaves a little to be desired) would effect all my pitchers. Some of my starters are still strong and my closer is lights out. It's just the middle guys.

draven085 · 09-26-2003, 11:47 AM

Which roster set are you using?

BadVlad · 09-26-2003, 11:55 AM

Total Minors.

HolyCow98 · 09-26-2003, 11:57 AM

When I first read this I was thinking its your ball park ratings.

For instance I've seen Pedro Martinez (10 avoiding runs) get traded to the Rockies in one of my leagues for a 2 year stint there.

Here is a 5 year ERA-line on Pedro, guess what two years he played in Colorado:

2.08
1.78
4.08
4.40
2.29
2.44

As far as relievers go. I find they can be erratic from year to year. One year you can have a solid guy (7 avoiding runs) be lights out with a 0.75 ERA. The next year he is around 4.00. Or decent guys go from being around 3.00 to near 6.00.

One thing I feel is a factor in my MR's effectiveness is usage, and more specifically, usage frequency. If they are constantly showing 3 or 4 days worth of pitches in there past five day pitch counts then they tend to be less effective. I try and work it so they do not have to pitch on back-to-back days as little as possible. If my SPers are all E-C in endurance this may mean carrying a 12 man pitching staff (5 starters 6 MRs and closer).

How long have you seen this trend with your team?

draven085 · 09-26-2003, 11:59 AM

Hmm. I haven't used TM in a while but one of my online leagues uses Rocco's roster and IMO middle relievers and setup men are rated far too low. Also remember that sample size plays an important part in a relievers ERA. Because they throw so few innings (compared to starting pitchers), their ERA's tend to jump all over the place.

That said, try and play matchups more and improve your defense as Steve said.

Omega Supreme · 09-26-2003, 12:03 PM

I haven't had that problem. My relievers just seem to be kind of inconsistent.

BadVlad · 09-26-2003, 12:11 PM

Thanks for the advice. This has been ongoing for the last decade and has become really frustrating. I'm now wrapping up this season and if I don't get fired I'll take some of the above mentioned factors into account.

Thanks.

Cowboys3356 · 09-26-2003, 12:26 PM

Clearly you need to adjust your league ERA settings. That should solve your problems.

If your league settings are set for jacked up run totals then all pitchers will suffer no matter how great their ratings.

Mr. Pencil · 09-26-2003, 03:25 PM

My relievers seem consistant. My league ERA is around 4.14.

Carlton · 09-26-2003, 04:10 PM

look at their Endurance ratings as well.

If you have an E endurance as a middle reliever, he will tend to get in a jam and not get out, vice versa for an A reliever

I have a quick pull on relievers, except my mopup guy is set for all the way right and my middle guys are based on their endurance ratings

HolyCow98 · 09-26-2003, 06:30 PM

I agree with Carlton on that one. While I don't mind D and E guys pitching in the set-up and closer roles, I don't like putting E or D guys in middle relief roles. They wear down and seem to pitch below their ratings more, but not always, then relievers with a higher END in the same role. Since they don't throw as many innings...if they have one bad week or a couple bad outings even it will take all months to bring down their ERA's to what you would expect from a 8-10 avoiding runs guy.

TheRockCT · 09-26-2003, 08:44 PM

I must concur with endurance opinions. Most of my experience with ineffective relievers comes from using E's or D's as middle relievers or mopup guys. They simply pitch 1 inning, and if their control is only middle of the road, then they'll throw more pitches, see some 3-2 counts, walk some guys, and end up screwed. These guys can be really effective though if they're used in a setup role with the splits taken into consideration.

Long_Long_Name · 09-27-2003, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cowboys3356
Clearly you need to adjust your league ERA settings. That should solve your problems.

If your league settings are set for jacked up run totals then all pitchers will suffer no matter how great their ratings.

I think he said it was just happening with his team.

BadVlad · 09-27-2003, 06:39 PM

Long is right. But alas, I was canned after the season (and wow, I had developed some guys that are about to be superstars). I got a gig with the Giants and my middle relief crew is solid. I'm thinking maybe it was the ballpark...

That was a long 10 years though..

Long_Long_Name · 09-27-2003, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BadVlad

That was a long 10 years though..

You stayed there 10 years???

BadVlad · 09-29-2003, 12:30 PM

Probably better worded as, "they kept me there 10 years".

They kept re-upping my contract, despite that fact that I did a horrible job. I did make the playoffs twice and won the series in my second year, but for the next 8 it was downhill.

theREDdoor28 · 09-29-2003, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BadVlad
Long is right. But alas, I was canned after the season (and wow, I had developed some guys that are about to be superstars).

I know how you feel. Tho, I only stayed two years with the Pirates, two of my draft picks in year 1 are were struck for stardom. I got fired after two years (not long enough to try and rebuild and actually win, but they fired me anyways), and signed on with another team. I'm in year 4 now, and those two draft picks are surely superstars. One, a catcher, Ryan Korn hit around 40 HR his first 2 full seasons and hits around .270 with 100+ walks. I feel proud.

09-26-2003, 11:17 AM	#1
BadVlad Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: My Pants Posts: 87	Some things I can handle... ...And some I can't. I could handle it when Taylor Buchholz (who had a 9 avoid runs, 9 avoid hits, 11 k's) couldn't get more than 10 wins or have an ERA under 5.50. I figured, hey, that's the joy of the game, right? All that potential. But what I can't handle is the fact that no middle reliever, no matter how fantastic his ratings, can finish the season with an era below 4.75. I don't care how fantastic they look on paper, how great they've pitched for other teams. As soon as my Harrisburg Senators (formerly the Montreal Expos) sign him or trade for him, he's doomed. It's now 2012 (started in 2003) and this has been consistent. Am I going insane? Is it just "the game"? As a manager, do I have no freakin' clue how to use my bullpen?

09-26-2003, 11:25 AM	#2
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	I'd say there are several "possible" factors: -Your ballpark. -Your defense, especially up the middle. -The way you use your pen. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

09-26-2003, 11:57 AM	#7
HolyCow98 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Douglasville, GA Posts: 2,735	When I first read this I was thinking its your ball park ratings. For instance I've seen Pedro Martinez (10 avoiding runs) get traded to the Rockies in one of my leagues for a 2 year stint there. Here is a 5 year ERA-line on Pedro, guess what two years he played in Colorado: 2.08 1.78 4.08 4.40 2.29 2.44 As far as relievers go. I find they can be erratic from year to year. One year you can have a solid guy (7 avoiding runs) be lights out with a 0.75 ERA. The next year he is around 4.00. Or decent guys go from being around 3.00 to near 6.00. One thing I feel is a factor in my MR's effectiveness is usage, and more specifically, usage frequency. If they are constantly showing 3 or 4 days worth of pitches in there past five day pitch counts then they tend to be less effective. I try and work it so they do not have to pitch on back-to-back days as little as possible. If my SPers are all E-C in endurance this may mean carrying a 12 man pitching staff (5 starters 6 MRs and closer). How long have you seen this trend with your team? __________________ NPBL Enjoying its 60th season Georgia GM

09-26-2003, 04:10 PM	#13
Carlton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,765	look at their Endurance ratings as well. If you have an E endurance as a middle reliever, he will tend to get in a jam and not get out, vice versa for an A reliever I have a quick pull on relievers, except my mopup guy is set for all the way right and my middle guys are based on their endurance ratings __________________ "I am at that stage of my life where I keep myself out of arguments. I am 100% self sufficient spiritually, emotionally & financially. Even if you say 1+1=5, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Enjoy!"

09-26-2003, 06:30 PM	#14
HolyCow98 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Douglasville, GA Posts: 2,735	I agree with Carlton on that one. While I don't mind D and E guys pitching in the set-up and closer roles, I don't like putting E or D guys in middle relief roles. They wear down and seem to pitch below their ratings more, but not always, then relievers with a higher END in the same role. Since they don't throw as many innings...if they have one bad week or a couple bad outings even it will take all months to bring down their ERA's to what you would expect from a 8-10 avoiding runs guy. __________________ NPBL Enjoying its 60th season Georgia GM

09-26-2003, 11:28 AM	#3
draven085 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,074	The roster set you are using could also be a factor in some of the results you are seeing. Relieves sometimes have very exaggerated L/R splits. Make sure you pay attention to them

09-26-2003, 11:29 AM	#4
BadVlad Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: My Pants Posts: 87	I'd think that those factors (I do play in a small park and my up the middle defense leaves a little to be desired) would effect all my pitchers. Some of my starters are still strong and my closer is lights out. It's just the middle guys.

09-26-2003, 11:47 AM	#5
draven085 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,074	Which roster set are you using?

09-26-2003, 11:55 AM	#6
BadVlad Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: My Pants Posts: 87	Total Minors.

09-26-2003, 11:59 AM	#8
draven085 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,074	Hmm. I haven't used TM in a while but one of my online leagues uses Rocco's roster and IMO middle relievers and setup men are rated far too low. Also remember that sample size plays an important part in a relievers ERA. Because they throw so few innings (compared to starting pitchers), their ERA's tend to jump all over the place. That said, try and play matchups more and improve your defense as Steve said.

09-26-2003, 12:03 PM	#9
Omega Supreme Minors (Single A) Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 72	I haven't had that problem. My relievers just seem to be kind of inconsistent.

09-26-2003, 12:11 PM	#10
BadVlad Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: My Pants Posts: 87	Thanks for the advice. This has been ongoing for the last decade and has become really frustrating. I'm now wrapping up this season and if I don't get fired I'll take some of the above mentioned factors into account. Thanks.

09-26-2003, 12:26 PM	#11
Cowboys3356 All Star Starter Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,571	Clearly you need to adjust your league ERA settings. That should solve your problems. If your league settings are set for jacked up run totals then all pitchers will suffer no matter how great their ratings.

09-26-2003, 03:25 PM	#12
Mr. Pencil Bat Boy Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2	My relievers seem consistant. My league ERA is around 4.14.

09-26-2003, 08:44 PM	#15
TheRockCT All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: TN Posts: 1,083	I must concur with endurance opinions. Most of my experience with ineffective relievers comes from using E's or D's as middle relievers or mopup guys. They simply pitch 1 inning, and if their control is only middle of the road, then they'll throw more pitches, see some 3-2 counts, walk some guys, and end up screwed. These guys can be really effective though if they're used in a setup role with the splits taken into consideration. __________________ GM, Vermont Emperor Penguins - POTD POTD Champions: 2011, 2012, 2013 GM, Monterrey Aztecs* - NABA *NABA Champions: 2013

09-27-2003, 06:39 PM	#17
BadVlad Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: My Pants Posts: 87	Long is right. But alas, I was canned after the season (and wow, I had developed some guys that are about to be superstars). I got a gig with the Giants and my middle relief crew is solid. I'm thinking maybe it was the ballpark... That was a long 10 years though..

09-29-2003, 12:30 PM	#19
BadVlad Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: My Pants Posts: 87	Probably better worded as, "they kept me there 10 years". They kept re-upping my contract, despite that fact that I did a horrible job. I did make the playoffs twice and won the series in my second year, but for the next 8 it was downhill.