Todd Helton

WBTyler939 · 02-01-2019, 11:54 AM

I've owned both 88 Gold Todd Helton cards (2001 All Star and 2000 Record Breaker), and both have been subpar. There is no way this card should annually hit below .260 in silver leagues. I'd understand in diamond/perfect leagues or in some seasons, but not almost every season.

Things like this (highly rated contact hitters who had very high batting averages in real life hit so poorly in the lower PT levels) are one of the main things I'd like to see adjusted in the next version of the game. If I'm spending cash-bought or game-earned PP on specific players/ratings, I'd like to know what I'm buying, not just a complete gamble that often enough doesn't reflect the ratings or the real life player/stats.

Thank you for listening.

<gets off soapbox>

old timer · 02-01-2019, 12:06 PM

In my diamond league, Todd Helton (88) is on a .311, 32 HR, 112 RBI pace. I've attached this particular card's career stats. Seems pretty good to me.

Multiple people have complained that there's too much variation in the game results, but no one has provided any mathematical argument to show this is really true. If it is true, it would really help to let the developers know so that they can fix things. Otherwise, isn't it possible that things are working just fine even if it's not exactly how we'd like?

<Pion> · 02-01-2019, 12:13 PM

Lather... Rinse... Repeat...

Looking at Helton's expected production and comparing it to actual production, he's performing exactly as predicted. One has a Expected wOBA of .342 and in 12000+ plate appearances, has done slightly better at .346. The other is expected .335 and in 4600+ plate appearances has done only slightly worse at .333. That's a great example of production being exactly what is expected.

That being said, your expectations are off for the same reasons mentioned in other threads (which maybe we should have a FAQ sticky)... level of competition... league normalization...

Clavette · 02-01-2019, 12:24 PM

Sounds like you got a bad Todd Helton card. Sell it and buy a new one

CrazyWR · 02-01-2019, 12:50 PM

what are your park factors?

DonkeyKongSr · 02-01-2019, 01:01 PM

How do his splits look? One of them (whichever one is the more recent season) is very good vR, but fairly poor vL. The other one is slightly worse vR, but notably better (but still average) vL.

WBTyler939 · 02-01-2019, 01:26 PM

I bought this 2001 Helton because the 2000 one wasn't doing anywhere near what Old_timer's is. He was pretty much hitting .250 in silver most seasons. I've only owned this one for a few weeks, but here's his career with previous owners...

chazzycat · 02-01-2019, 01:27 PM

My 88 Helton really struggled to hit for average too, for a very long time. The power was ok but over 5+ seasons his batting average was very consistently around .240. That is a fairly large sample size to underperform so consistently. Plus, that was with my home park having maxed out AVG factors. Several players with similar CONTACT rating or even lower performed much, much better.

One theory I had was that the "extreme pull" attribute has an effect on batting average. And maybe this is excarcerbated at higher levels with smarter owners who use more infield shifts. I ended up cutting bait and "downgrading" to Rod Carew 82. Not regretting it.

huskerdan25 · 02-01-2019, 01:28 PM

My RB Helton in P405 is hitting .310 with 10 HRs. So, he does perform even at the perfect level.

mcdog512 · 02-01-2019, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clavette

sounds like you got a bad todd helton card. Sell it and buy a new one

rofl......

pappyzan · 02-01-2019, 02:01 PM

RB Helton has started 65 games as a platoon 1B and is hitting .340, 33 2Bs, 4 HRs in perfect.

So, as with every_other_card in PT, YMMV.

WBTyler939 · 02-01-2019, 02:10 PM

It's just very strange how different copies of the same card can be so different.

pappyzan · 02-01-2019, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WBTyler939

It's just very strange how different copies of the same card can be so different.

Nah, different results are going to happen no matter what. There's a ton of variables thrown into play within every game in the season. It depends on your league, your league level, the quality of the teams in your league, the quality of pitching your card has faced up to this point, your ballpark factors, the ballpark factors of the teams your card has faced on the road, exhaustion of your card or other pitchers/players, whether your card or pitchers it's faced are hot or cold or not, L/R splits for your card and pitchers it's faced, infield shifts, individual player strategy of your card or opponents, team strategy for you and your opponents, the quality of other batters in your lineup, your card's speed/baserunning ability, your opponent's fielding ability/arm/error/DP ratings as a team and individually, pitch counts/ratings/tendencies of opponent's pitchers, and literally hundreds of other variables behind the scenes that really make OOTP/PT so great but also so frustrating at times.

It's really not all that strange or surprising.

old timer · 02-01-2019, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappyzan

Nah, different results are going to happen no matter what. There's a ton of variables thrown into play within every game in the season. It depends on your league, your league level, the quality of the teams in your league, the quality of pitching your card has faced up to this point, your ballpark factors, the ballpark factors of the teams your card has faced on the road, exhaustion of your card or other pitchers/players, whether your card or pitchers it's faced are hot or cold or not, L/R splits for your card and pitchers it's faced, infield shifts, individual player strategy of your card or opponents, team strategy for you and your opponents, the quality of other batters in your lineup, your card's speed/baserunning ability, your opponent's fielding ability/arm/error/DP ratings as a team and individually, pitch counts/ratings/tendencies of opponent's pitchers, and literally hundreds of other variables behind the scenes that really make OOTP/PT so great but also so frustrating at times.

It's really not all that strange or surprising.

Nice and thorough!

Dogberry99 · 02-01-2019, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappyzan

It's really not all that strange or surprising.

This should be true, except that this does not sufficiently explain what we see when all those variables cause disparate results in similar cards.

However, I personally view this more as an issue with the ratings system than with variance, though they are certainly related in topics such as this.

Dunzie · 02-01-2019, 11:35 PM

I have had both Heltons (not the 100) along the way and both were pretty decent hitters and fielders. Need to upgrade at perfect IMHO, but a great investment trying to get up the ladder.

02-01-2019, 11:54 AM	#1
WBTyler939 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 90	Todd Helton I've owned both 88 Gold Todd Helton cards (2001 All Star and 2000 Record Breaker), and both have been subpar. There is no way this card should annually hit below .260 in silver leagues. I'd understand in diamond/perfect leagues or in some seasons, but not almost every season. Things like this (highly rated contact hitters who had very high batting averages in real life hit so poorly in the lower PT levels) are one of the main things I'd like to see adjusted in the next version of the game. If I'm spending cash-bought or game-earned PP on specific players/ratings, I'd like to know what I'm buying, not just a complete gamble that often enough doesn't reflect the ratings or the real life player/stats. Thank you for listening. <gets off soapbox>

02-01-2019, 12:06 PM	#2
old timer Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 2,280	In my diamond league, Todd Helton (88) is on a .311, 32 HR, 112 RBI pace. I've attached this particular card's career stats. Seems pretty good to me. Multiple people have complained that there's too much variation in the game results, but no one has provided any mathematical argument to show this is really true. If it is true, it would really help to let the developers know so that they can fix things. Otherwise, isn't it possible that things are working just fine even if it's not exactly how we'd like? Attached Images __________________ Last edited by old timer; 02-01-2019 at 12:07 PM.

02-01-2019, 01:26 PM	#7
WBTyler939 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 90	I bought this 2001 Helton because the 2000 one wasn't doing anywhere near what Old_timer's is. He was pretty much hitting .250 in silver most seasons. I've only owned this one for a few weeks, but here's his career with previous owners... Attached Images Last edited by WBTyler939; 02-01-2019 at 01:28 PM.

02-01-2019, 12:13 PM	#3
<Pion> All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,428	Lather... Rinse... Repeat... Looking at Helton's expected production and comparing it to actual production, he's performing exactly as predicted. One has a Expected wOBA of .342 and in 12000+ plate appearances, has done slightly better at .346. The other is expected .335 and in 4600+ plate appearances has done only slightly worse at .333. That's a great example of production being exactly what is expected. That being said, your expectations are off for the same reasons mentioned in other threads (which maybe we should have a FAQ sticky)... level of competition... league normalization...

02-01-2019, 12:24 PM	#4
Clavette Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Connecticut Posts: 371	Sounds like you got a bad Todd Helton card. Sell it and buy a new one

02-01-2019, 12:50 PM	#5
CrazyWR All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 549	what are your park factors?

02-01-2019, 01:01 PM	#6
DonkeyKongSr All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 777	How do his splits look? One of them (whichever one is the more recent season) is very good vR, but fairly poor vL. The other one is slightly worse vR, but notably better (but still average) vL.

02-01-2019, 01:27 PM	#8
chazzycat All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,685	My 88 Helton really struggled to hit for average too, for a very long time. The power was ok but over 5+ seasons his batting average was very consistently around .240. That is a fairly large sample size to underperform so consistently. Plus, that was with my home park having maxed out AVG factors. Several players with similar CONTACT rating or even lower performed much, much better. One theory I had was that the "extreme pull" attribute has an effect on batting average. And maybe this is excarcerbated at higher levels with smarter owners who use more infield shifts. I ended up cutting bait and "downgrading" to Rod Carew 82. Not regretting it.

02-01-2019, 01:28 PM	#9
huskerdan25 Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 353	My RB Helton in P405 is hitting .310 with 10 HRs. So, he does perform even at the perfect level.

02-01-2019, 02:01 PM	#11
pappyzan All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 637	RB Helton has started 65 games as a platoon 1B and is hitting .340, 33 2Bs, 4 HRs in perfect. So, as with every_other_card in PT, YMMV.

02-01-2019, 02:10 PM	#12
WBTyler939 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 90	It's just very strange how different copies of the same card can be so different.

02-01-2019, 11:35 PM	#16
Dunzie All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Guelph, ON, CAN Posts: 588	I have had both Heltons (not the 100) along the way and both were pretty decent hitters and fielders. Need to upgrade at perfect IMHO, but a great investment trying to get up the ladder.