Modern day fictional league w/ 4 man rotation

[venflaalachi]

Is that possible? I want to run a fictional league with modern day bullpen usage but have a 4 man rotation. If i set pitcher stamina to low, would the starters have enough time to recover?

[professor ape]

It seems that we could be heading that way in real life. At one point LaRussa tinkered with a three man rotation limiting the starter to three innings. It is not a difficult argument to suggest that more frequent but less strenuous work could be better. You would want a spot starter for stretches where the team is lacking days off but why not put your four best starters out there forty times a year for five innings? The tough part from a public perception would be to maintain the discipline to take out a starter having a strong game. The relievers would be sure to blow some of those games which could start an outcry. Of course, the tiring starter would be increasingly likely to have a bad inning but we fans tend to lose our objectivity when leads are blown.

[Matt Arnold]

Especially with an 8-man bullpen, I think it's doable if you can get enough starters/long men. Basically, you have 4 starters go 4 innings each, and 4 relievers to tag-team with them to go 3-4 innings each as well. That still leaves you with 4 relievers to handle the last 2-3 innings of each game.

The biggest problems in the modern usage to me would be:
1. injuries are a real pain. Lose a starter, and now you gotta figure out how to shuffle guys around. Lose 2 starters, and suddenly you have to re-evaluate
2. Finding 8 arms who can each pitch 150+ innings is really not that easy to do
3. Figuring out when to take out the starter is tough. By default, the game usage will keep in a starter until he gets into trouble, but in the above model, you're probably going to want to pre-emptively take guys out more often, that even using the quickest hook setting may not work. You probably need explicit pitch counts (60?) for starters, which is tougher if a guy is rolling along (and as well, doesn't take into account knowing that there's off-days coming up, so maybe he can go longer, etc...)

[RonCo]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Especially with an 8-man bullpen, I think it's doable if you can get enough starters/long men. Basically, you have 4 starters go 4 innings each, and 4 relievers to tag-team with them to go 3-4 innings each as well. That still leaves you with 4 relievers to handle the last 2-3 innings of each game.

The biggest problems in the modern usage to me would be:
1. injuries are a real pain. Lose a starter, and now you gotta figure out how to shuffle guys around. Lose 2 starters, and suddenly you have to re-evaluate
2. Finding 8 arms who can each pitch 150+ innings is really not that easy to do
3. Figuring out when to take out the starter is tough. By default, the game usage will keep in a starter until he gets into trouble, but in the above model, you're probably going to want to pre-emptively take guys out more often, that even using the quickest hook setting may not work. You probably need explicit pitch counts (60?) for starters, which is tougher if a guy is rolling along (and as well, doesn't take into account knowing that there's off-days coming up, so maybe he can go longer, etc...)

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I think the OP is really asking for if pitchers can start on modern day pitch-counts of (say 100 pitches), and recover well enough to run a four-man rotation. I've always assumed that this is really where the majors will go to.

In general, though, OOTP's fatigue model is pretty tight there.

I've often run 4-man rotations with modern day relief usage, but to do it I need to keep pitch counts down around 85-90...or for a very durable guy I can get to 95. When doing this, I occasionally need to drop a 5th starter in just to kind of top-off the rotation.

That said, it ends up with my starters throwing more innings individually than they would have in a 5-man rotation, and I've not had any real injury issues beyond the norm. I assume that's because my guys are almost never throwing into ranges where PAP kicks in. I do think the fatigue recovery system could be expanded a little and this would be more "realistic," whatever that is. With the modern advent of 100 pitch count limits, I'm personally pretty confident that the 4-man rotation is a valid approach, and is being slow to be undertaken for several more social issues than competitive ones

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by venflaalachi

Is that possible? I want to run a fictional league with modern day bullpen usage but have a 4 man rotation. If i set pitcher stamina to low, would the starters have enough time to recover?

i think as you change it it's 5-> 4.5 -> 4, as far as recovering to start in time. the 4.5 is a "half" because with that setting the top stamina guys can be recovered with only 3 off days (a 4-man rotation), but lower stamina guys wiill be teh sub-80% recovered. that would not be a good one for what you described, but if you didn't look at many pitchers might not see that as a problem if they are higher stamina guys.

very low - low- whatever's next... i think is how it goes... you want 2 steps up from whateer a 5-man default is.. very low? i beieve is what it is for "5".

almost forgot: don't forget to change the actual rotation size setting too... if it's not a dropdown setting on that page, i am just making somethign up,lol. pretty sure it's in same area you dictate what a 25-man composition is etc... how many RP, bench players etc.

i don't htink this is a false memory, but recently i told someone that team strategy was on team budget report underst ateam statistics... lol.. nope. simply not true.

[Cryomaniac]

I think pitcher fatigue will need to be modelled differently at some point. Although, of course, how to do that is a vexed question.

[RonCo]

Yes, I think that's true (the need to modify fatigue). If you run a 4-man by limiting pitch count I don't think you'll get injuries, but you'll also not get guys rested to 100% pretty much whatever pitch limits you enact. (assuming a default "low" stamina setting in the base settings).

[NoOne]

with very low you'd be ~70-80percent 1 day early, that may translate to ~4ip? 60-80pitches for most, i bet. can't use 'strict order'... may need 'always you highest rested... not sure it it'd grab a rp occasionally or something, though.

the biggest change would be the manager strategy, so that it isn't based on getting tired in this particular case. they are pulled due to # of times through lineup, and if catastrophe hits, # of pitches when neccessary. current game may not do well trying to implement this due to the 'how.'

in RL the only way you could do this for 162g is with a bullpen that'd be too expensive to make it cost efficient, unless you have a ton of young arms, you can't spend ~60-80M on your bullpen and have enough money for other things. well, LAD and NYY can, but the elite SP they can attract may be better overall. can't apply league averages to elite SP without a little give.

i guess if the money you save on SP -- assuming price drops and you can get more for less by religiously protecting them from 3rd time through -- can be shown to equal or be greater than the added cost in the pen, i am wrong. probably have to save 40-60 off your average rotation to offset the added costs.

you'd have to commit to the understanding that you can't predict outcomes. you have to roll with the same ~4guys on alternating days to finish up games. obviously, some guys would/could play more as you roll with the punches of 162g, but some guys would have to be dedicated to going through the entire lineup and maybe a bit more in some cases when you start letting up runs.

i don't think it is a bad idea for OotP, but in RL i don't think it'd be cost effective under the current dynamics.. since the cost won't go down without using them differently en masse, i woudln't bet on it occuring.

even so, in RL they'd be wise to incorporate what you can from this concept of avoiding 3rd time through lineup when possible without burdening pen.

[krownroyal83]

My fictional team has some terrible SP's so i've been running a 4 man starting line up for the last 2 seasons. We've done poorly but that's due to being in a rebuild not because the pitchers were not getting enough rest. Make sure you have a decent sized bullpen though

[venflaalachi]

Originally Posted by RonCo

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I think the OP is really asking for if pitchers can start on modern day pitch-counts of (say 100 pitches), and recover well enough to run a four-man rotation. I've always assumed that this is really where the majors will go to.

In general, though, OOTP's fatigue model is pretty tight there.

I've often run 4-man rotations with modern day relief usage, but to do it I need to keep pitch counts down around 85-90...or for a very durable guy I can get to 95. When doing this, I occasionally need to drop a 5th starter in just to kind of top-off the rotation.

That said, it ends up with my starters throwing more innings individually than they would have in a 5-man rotation, and I've not had any real injury issues beyond the norm. I assume that's because my guys are almost never throwing into ranges where PAP kicks in. I do think the fatigue recovery system could be expanded a little and this would be more "realistic," whatever that is. With the modern advent of 100 pitch count limits, I'm personally pretty confident that the 4-man rotation is a valid approach, and is being slow to be undertaken for several more social issues than competitive ones

Yes, I was asking if pitchers could do modern-day pitch counts, then recover quick enough for a 4 man rotation. It seems like the answer is probably not. I think I might increase the stamina setting to normal, but leave the "hook for starting pitching" and "hook for relief pitcher" at modern-day levels.