Let's Talk Defense

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by Maddox

My team is now in a Bronze league.

How are you doing so far?

My second (F2P) team is going heavy on defense while trying to maximize contact on offense without regard to HR power. Here's my current lineup:

C Buster Posey (70 contact/86 catcher ability)
1B Keith Hernandez (77 contact/79 defense)
2B vs. RHP Tony Fernandez (74 vs. RHP/training to 93)
2B vs. LHP Dick Groat (83 vs. LHP/training to 89)
3B Johnny Pesky (76/training to 86)
SS Andrelton Simmons (67/103)
LF vs. RHP Willie McGee (85 vs. RHP/training to 102)
LF vs. LHP Lorenzo Cain (84 vs. LHP/training to 90)
CF Garry Maddox (77/92)
RF vs. RHP Richie Ashburn (83 vs. RHP/training to 105)
RF vs. LHP 2004 Ichiro (85 vs. LHP/87)
DH 1974 Rod Carew (87)

Also on the bench:
C Yadier Molina (55 contact -- meh/86 catcher ability)
1B/3B Matt Duffy (67 contact -- meh/84 at 3B, training to 96 at 1B, though doubtful to play enough to get there)
LF/CF Lorenzo Cain (77/70 at CF, training to 90 at LF)

I just added Groat and Ashburn, so there are some growing pains there, while McGee has only been with me since the start of the season. As such, they aren't currently platooning while training. Cain and Fernandez are most of the way to their potential.

I'm still not sure which corners to place McGee and Ashburn in. The current setup can max out around 102 in left and 105 in right; if I flip them, it would be 112 in left and 96 in right. I'm leaning towards the current setup.

I don't see myself upgrading offense at SS... I'm not getting rid of the 103 D with serviceable contact. I would also certainly like to improve at 2B and 3B, though figuring out the direction for my pitching staff is more of a priority. Also upping the D at 1B would be nice, but not a necessity.

My first year in bronze was 2023, and I went 108-54 but was behind a whale in my division and lost the wild card game. No worries, 2024 brought a boatload of PP, I went 114-48... and lost in the division series. Now in 2025 I'm in silver and I'm off to a nice little 30-6 start. Excited to see how far I can take this group.

[Maddox]

I was 16-11 at the end of the day yesterday but still 2 games out of first. Pitching and defense was doing well but an already weak offense had decided to start in a slump with several players below the .200 mark, including Ichiro.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by Maddox

I was 16-11 at the end of the day yesterday but still 2 games out of first. Pitching and defense was doing well but an already weak offense had decided to start in a slump with several players below the .200 mark, including Ichiro.

Update: I came home to discover that I have gone 13-1 so far in the month of May to boost my record to 29-12 with a 7 game lead in my division.

I lead the league in Runs Against and Starter ERA and am second in Defensive Efficiency. My pitchers have gotten 6 "Putting up Zeros" achievements already.

What I did not expect is that I am also third in Batting Average. Albert Belle so far is 3rd in BA, 1st in HR, and 1st in RBIs. Not a bad bat to have in the number 3 hole in the lineup.

[taz20075]

I've been rolling with Belanger as my backup IF and Hamilton as my backup OF and I don't really plan to upgrade. At the very least I know that I'm getting elite D (and in Hamilton's case about 30 SBs as well). It's much easier (for me, at least) to rely on good defensive ratings equalling good defense vs good offensive ratings equalling good offense.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by taz20075

I've been rolling with Belanger as my backup IF and Hamilton as my backup OF and I don't really plan to upgrade. At the very least I know that I'm getting elite D (and in Hamilton's case about 30 SBs as well). It's much easier (for me, at least) to rely on good defensive ratings equalling good defense vs good offensive ratings equalling good offense.

I have Bud Harrelson for infield backup and Jackie Bradley Jr for outfield backup. They have several positions to learn while subbing all the infield and outfield positions but when done they should be above average in all of them. What remains to be seen is if they can provide me any offense in the process.

[DonkeyKongSr]

FYI, here's the only players I know of that are 7 Position Super Utilities, with the qualifier that they are a 50 or better rating at all IF & OF positions. Buck Ewing is the only 8 Position Super Utility that can play 50+ catcher, too (and he actually has some terrible, but existing pitching ratings). Catcher Craig Biggio is in the 40's at 3B and SS, but otherwise is an 8 Position Super Utility.

Mookie Betts 100
Buck Ewing 95
Ben Zobrist 94
Royce Lewis 83
George Davis 80
Trea Turner 79
Scott Kingery 78
Jean Segura 75
Ozzie Albies 75
Chris Taylor 73

[Izz]

Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr

FYI, here's the only players I know of that are 7 Position Super Utilities, with the qualifier that they are a 50 or better rating at all IF & OF positions. Buck Ewing is the only 8 Position Super Utility that can play 50+ catcher, too (and he actually has some terrible, but existing pitching ratings). Catcher Craig Biggio is in the 40's at 3B and SS, but otherwise is an 8 Position Super Utility.

Mookie Betts 100
Buck Ewing 95
Ben Zobrist 94
Royce Lewis 83
George Davis 80
Trea Turner 79
Scott Kingery 78
Jean Segura 75
Ozzie Albies 75
Chris Taylor 73

You have to train Turner, Segura up at a few of those positions though, right? Not at PC right now but I have both of those cards & don't recall them having existing ratings at all positions. If ability to be trained is the criteria then you can add Manny Machado to that list too.

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by Izz

You have to train Turner, Segura up at a few of those positions though, right? Not at PC right now but I have both of those cards & don't recall them having existing ratings at all positions. If ability to be trained is the criteria then you can add Manny Machado to that list too.

Yeah, most of them only have one, maybe two, trained ratings. They will all be able to get over 50 though. Run their cards through my calculator from Page 1 of this thread.

[Izz]

Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr

Yeah, most of them only have one, maybe two, trained ratings. They will all be able to get over 50 though. Run their cards through my calculator from Page 1 of this thread.

Yep, you can add Machado to that list in that case (existing SS rating is only 46, so can't go higher, but all other positions can)

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by Izz

Yep, you can add Machado to that list in that case (existing SS rating is only 46, so can't go higher, but all other positions can)

You missed my arbitrary cutoff of 50 at every position. 46 at SS and ~44 at CF for Machado.

Andrelton Simmons gets to around 44 at CF, but is Excellent (80s at LF/RF) to Godlike (>100 in IF) at every other position, so he may be one of the few guys not on that list I wouldn't feel bad at putting as Utility for every position. EDIT: He's actually much better at CF than Manny, but his 100 Arm is barely factored in for CF ratings. 2 less Range (the biggest factor by far), 19 more Arm, and 15 more Error, yet they rate the same. I really wonder if that +2 range results in so much better defense than less errors and gunning guys out at home.

[Izz]

Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr

You missed my arbitrary cutoff of 50 at every position. 46 at SS and ~44 at CF for Machado.

Ah ok. Though Trea Turner has fixed ratings of 35 at 2B, and 25 at CF?

[Maddox]

My experiment team that I started at the beginning of this thread is just burning up the Bronze Division

My starters have pitched 11 shutouts so far. They lead the league in ERA by a full half a point. 4 of the top 6 ERAs in the league are 4 of my starters.

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by Izz

Ah ok. Though Trea Turner has fixed ratings of 35 at 2B, and 25 at CF?

No one has fixed ratings. Every player is already at their peak rating at their primary position. Their other position ratings listed on their stock card may or may not already be at their peak. Try out my calculator on a card and see. (FYI it will miss by 1-2 points because the cards show rounded ratings).

[Izz]

Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr

No one has fixed ratings. Every player is already at their peak rating at their primary position. Their other position ratings listed on their stock card may or may not already be at their peak. Try out my calculator on a card and see. (FYI it will miss by 1-2 points because the cards show rounded ratings).

Okay. I haven't seen anybody's existing card ratings improve (at non-primary positions) but I obviously haven't been looking hard enough

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by Izz

Okay. I haven't seen anybody's existing card ratings improve (at non-primary positions) but I obviously haven't been looking hard enough

You are definitely not looking hard enough, because it's maybe 1 or 2 games before the first points show up at any position that a player can get above 0. There is some sort of minimum component ratings needed to train a position, but pretty much as long as they have more than red component numbers, they can get above 0 for the position ratings. It takes about 1 to 1.5 seasons at a position to reach the peak.

1 exception to this is catcher, where apparently it can take a whole season of starts to get past zero. I think the only player where this matters is Josh Donaldson who can get something like a 30-40 catcher rating after 4-5 seasons!

[Izz]

Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr

You are definitely not looking hard enough, because it's maybe 1 or 2 games before the first points show up at any position that a player can get above 0. There is some sort of minimum component ratings needed to train a position, but pretty much as long as they have more than red component numbers, they can get above 0 for the position ratings. It takes about 1 to 1.5 seasons at a position to reach the peak.

1 exception to this is catcher, where apparently it can take a whole season of starts to get past zero. I think the only player where this matters is Josh Donaldson who can get something like a 30-40 catcher rating after 4-5 seasons!

Yep, I knew players could be trained up from 0 but I didn't realize that existing position ratings (eg Trea Turner's 2B, CF) could also improve. It adds another cool component.

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by Izz

Yep, I knew players could be trained up from 0 but I didn't realize that existing position ratings (eg Trea Turner's 2B, CF) could also improve. It adds another cool component.

Yeah, he's a good example of a player that starts at his peak at his primary position, but has others partially learned.

If you check out the Future Legends, many of them start with multiple position ratings and in several cases they are fully trained in those positions (although there are still more to learn). Bo Bichette comes maxed at 2B and SS. I believe Victor Robles starts maxed at all 3 OF positions, and he's really good at all of them, so he's an excellent early game backup because you never have to worry about poor defense from your backup at untrained positions.

Oh yeah, and to anyone reading this who has a Mookie, be sure to immediately start training him at 2B, even if you put him there in just one of your lineups to grow him over a couple seasons. The versatility of being able to move him there as a 70 2B (who immediately becomes the best hitting 2B in the game) when you start picking up some other elite OFs is great.

[old timer]

Originally Posted by Maddox

My experiment team that I started at the beginning of this thread is just burning up the Bronze Division

My starters have pitched 11 shutouts so far. They lead the league in ERA by a full half a point. 4 of the top 6 ERAs in the league are 4 of my starters.

I'm glad to see your experiment is working out so well. I've avoided adding a 2nd team, but now you've got me interested so I might be starting up a new one soon.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by old timer

I'm glad to see your experiment is working out so well. I've avoided adding a 2nd team, but now you've got me interested so I might be starting up a new one soon.

It is a nice change of pace to have a second or third team. I am at a point on my first two teams (a regular team and an All Cardinals Team) where there is not much to do except wait to earn enough points to upgrade a position.

Plus, three teams have been able to provide me a little clarity on the direction that I will want to go with my main team in version 20.

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by atabakin

Now in 2025 I'm in silver and I'm off to a nice little 30-6 start. Excited to see how far I can take this group.

Since a 35-7 start, this team has gone 31-33. Still a good 66-40 record, but quite disappointing!