Competitive balance discussion

[atabakin]

Originally Posted by atabakin

That's the current situation with my first team. It's not ideal, but I don't feel like I'm entitled to or deserve anything more.

I will admit, though, that I'm less likely to spend as much as the modest amount I did to get to where I am. That's just because I lost out on the joy of building the team slowly (which I'm enjoying with my second team), not because of the admitted competitive imbalance.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

There are about a dozen people who disagree with everything anyone says and they take turns telling everyone that every idea is bad. Come up with one single good idea or else we all know that they think PT is absolutely perfect when it comes to their huge competitive advantage since they spend without limit and nothing should ever be changed. What is funny is that I saw Orcin complain about how he can either spend $500 or never compete at perfect in another thread. That's exactly what I've talked about. But now he's still too stubborn to agree with me that I had a point even though he came to the same conclusion. There is a wall that decent players cannot get past and they become stuck there.

Wrong again... my team at Perfect Level league is a completely free team. Why do you assume incorrectly that we "spend without limit"?

EDIT - I have to wonder about your equating of "decent" players with what I believe you mean are people that don't spend a lot of money. If so, don't you think it wrong to refer to someone who has the money and enjoys playing that way to be excluded from "decent" player?

[Mormo]

I still think there's no reason to be in the higher leagues. This model is based off of real life soccer leagues with promotion and relegation. However, in real life when you're in the top division you get sponsorships, TV deals and exponentially more revenue. Being relegated in real life means you can't afford to pay your stars and being promoted means your profit margin is about to go up.

Nobody in real life would care to be amongst tougher competition with absolutely no financial compensation. Imagine a game that only rewards you relative to your performance and as you do well the difficulty increases and your rewards are reduced. That is Perfect Team.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by matingly23

What you seem not to grasp, repeatedly, is that being slaughtered by whales ruins the game completely. Anything that helps to avoid/overcome that is a plus.

At the risk of repeating myself again, it has nothing to do with grasping anything and has everything to do with not agreeing with your conclusion. What you seem to be missing, though I don't want to misrepresent your views, is that though you and some others think the game is ruined completely by it, there are those who don't think the game is ruined completely by it. I'm also not against change, but I don't care for the ideas that put the onus on the developers to be good Samaritans and offer something for free that is clearly built on a financial model. They have expenses and are not a huge company that can absorb costs like that.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by matingly23

There will still be players on the AH, but the prices would drop to closer to what you can get from the AI.

What you seem not to grasp, repeatedly, is that being slaughtered by whales ruins the game completely. Anything that helps to avoid/overcome that is a plus.

How long would it take before teams have a legit shot to beat whale teams? Not two years. I don't mind being a slight underdog for a while, it's much better than having absolutely no chance. Plus idle teams are predictable teams.

Right now it won't matter how much you grind, there will be "special" packs sold, new cards, always there will be something to keep the whales reaching for and to keep them elite for their $$. That is how games like this work, but there are usually ways around it.

For example, in DDO pretty much every server is infested with high level guilds that spend tons of $$. But there are some servers that are more or less barren, some are meant for beta testing. Those servers are worth playing on. Yes there aren't as many items on the AH, and guess what, the prices are also much lower.

Where's your whale this week after the random league assignments?

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

Wrong again... my team at Perfect Level league is a completely free team. Why do you assume incorrectly that we "spend without limit"?

EDIT - I have to wonder about your equating of "decent" players with what I believe you mean are people that don't spend a lot of money. If so, don't you think it wrong to refer to someone who has the money and enjoys playing that way to be excluded from "decent" player?

I made it to Perfect with a F2P team and hung around for a season and then had enough slumps next season where I got relegated. It doesn't matter how good you are at OOTP, you're just not going to compete with a team that has a superstar at every position. I was also completely unable to improve my team as I wasn't getting any rewards at that level. That's not fun to me when I can't even improve my team and just wait to be relegated but I don't see the fun in buying a team with real money either. Maybe this mode just isn't for me.

For those of you that are spending money, thanks for supporting OOTP development and ensuring we'll get to OOTP 30. I'll look forward to the continued improvements in solo/online leagues mode even if I never touch this mode in 20.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

I made it to Perfect with a F2P team and hung around for a season and then had enough slumps next season where I got relegated. It doesn't matter how good you are at OOTP, you're just not going to compete with a team that has a superstar at every position. I was also completely unable to improve my team as I wasn't getting any rewards at that level. That's not fun to me when I can't even improve my team and just wait to be relegated but I don't see the fun in buying a team with real money either. Maybe this mode just isn't for me.

For those of you that are spending money, thanks for supporting OOTP development and ensuring we'll get to OOTP 30. I'll look forward to the continued improvements in solo/online leagues mode even if I never touch this mode in 20.

Squirrel!

[Mormo]

My only solution is to make the players have salaries and make the leagues have revenue. That way it would be bad financially to use perfect players in the lower leagues and guys couldn't easily climb up that way. When you get promoted to a league with higher revenue you can gradually use better players. If you go bankrupt you go back to the entry pool.

This would maintain competitive balance at all levels and actually give a reason other than bragging rights to get promoted. As it stands you either spend thousands to win the perfect league world series or you just tank to stay in bronze. Anything in between is currently pointless.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

I agree with you, but I also think some teams were swept up in the rush to get teams into the upper levels. They are teams that weren't good enough to win at the level they were out and yet were promoted. Tanking is not the solution nor is complaining about it, I just suggested that it happens. The solution is that more and more powerful teams are working their way up through the ranks to the Perfect levels and eventually if a team doesn't belong, it will be popped out to a lower league. If they continue to improve, they'll stay. In the meantime, just enjoy the ride with what you have.

Isn't it kind of a flaw though, to tell a player base that they have to wait several weeks before they may have some fun ? How many other games do you know where you're basically told "Well, I know you can't progress right now and things are not really fun for you, but hey, you know what ? just wait several weeks and then perhaps things will be better" ?

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

I made it to Perfect with a F2P team and hung around for a season and then had enough slumps next season where I got relegated. It doesn't matter how good you are at OOTP, you're just not going to compete with a team that has a superstar at every position. I was also completely unable to improve my team as I wasn't getting any rewards at that level. That's not fun to me when I can't even improve my team and just wait to be relegated but I don't see the fun in buying a team with real money either. Maybe this mode just isn't for me.

For those of you that are spending money, thanks for supporting OOTP development and ensuring we'll get to OOTP 30. I'll look forward to the continued improvements in solo/online leagues mode even if I never touch this mode in 20.

Yes, this is my third season at perfect level. I finish with a win % in the mid .400s but don't mind. I know that some day there will be enough teams to push me out, and if not, then my team is exactly where it should be. I get enjoyment out of the players and stats I can get so the fun factor has not left.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

I made it to Perfect with a F2P team and hung around for a season and then had enough slumps next season where I got relegated. It doesn't matter how good you are at OOTP, you're just not going to compete with a team that has a superstar at every position. I was also completely unable to improve my team as I wasn't getting any rewards at that level. That's not fun to me when I can't even improve my team and just wait to be relegated but I don't see the fun in buying a team with real money either. Maybe this mode just isn't for me.

For those of you that are spending money, thanks for supporting OOTP development and ensuring we'll get to OOTP 30. I'll look forward to the continued improvements in solo/online leagues mode even if I never touch this mode in 20.

This is my experience, too (though at the Diamond level). I spent a few bucks, but not much, since I figured I’d wait for 20 to pony up a larger sum. To state the obvious: people wouldn’t be pouring hundreds of dollars into PT if it didn’t give them a competitive advantage. I believe Markus said that just 5% of users spend money; the other 95% prefer F2P. So, if my math is correct, 9,500 of the 10,000 teams are F2P. But when you look at the teams that enjoy success at the Diamond or Perfect levels, there’s no doubt the vast majority come from the 500 P2P teams. I wish my team was more competitive. Regardless, though, I find it all very interesting.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

This is my experience, too (though at the Diamond level). I spent a few bucks, but not much, since I figured I’d wait for 20 to pony up a larger sum. To state the obvious: people wouldn’t be pouring hundreds of dollars into PT if it didn’t give them a competitive advantage. I believe Markus said that just 5% of users spend money; the other 95% prefer F2P. So, if my math is correct, 9,500 of the 10,000 teams are F2P. But when you look at the teams that enjoy success at the Diamond or Perfect levels, there’s no doubt the vast majority come from the 500 P2P teams. I wish my team was more competitive. Regardless, though, I find it all very interesting.

Would be interesting to know how many F2P teams made it to Perfect level. I know of three, but that's only because the information is volunteered. I would guess, but don't know, that there are some people who do not frequent this forum or don't bother posting that are F2P at perfect level as well, but only the devs would know how many there are.

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

Yes, this is my third season at perfect level. I finish with a win % in the mid .400s but don't mind. I know that some day there will be enough teams to push me out, and if not, then my team is exactly where it should be. I get enjoyment out of the players and stats I can get so the fun factor has not left.

The key for me with these modes is that I feel like I should be making progress to improve my teams, even if it isn't fast. I got less than a thousand PP last season, which isn't even enough for a pack. Upgrades for my team are running at 15,000+. At that rate, I wouldn't even get an improvement before OOTP 20. That's a problem.

I'd love to blow up the team and start over but there's no way to do that except tanking, which is frowned upon so I'm just stuck. That leads me to abandoning the mode. That's a gameplay problem that needs to be addressed for the OOTP 20 mode.

Even in diamond this season, 3 teams in my division are all 90+ players so I'm in the same boat this season too.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by eldur00

Isn't it kind of a flaw though, to tell a player base that they have to wait several weeks before they may have some fun ? How many other games do you know where you're basically told "Well, I know you can't progress right now and things are not really fun for you, but hey, you know what ? just wait several weeks and then perhaps things will be better" ?

There are those who can have fun during those weeks when not doing great, so I don't think it is a flaw for everyone. Guess it depends on what you get out of it. If the only way for someone to have fun is to be competitive, then yes it will be a long several weeks.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

What is funny is that I saw Orcin complain about how he can either spend $500 or never compete at perfect in another thread. That's exactly what I've talked about. But now he's still too stubborn to agree with me that I had a point even though he came to the same conclusion.

You need to quit lying about what people say. Either quote me or leave me out of the discussion.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

If your team is good enough to get promoted to perfect then that's where you should be. That's the way this game works. You can't stay in diamond and win forever. How is that fair to the teams in diamond that aren't good enough to win because your team is there?

This is totally oversimplified. It is WAYYYY easier to get promoted to perfect level in the opening weeks (half of each league gets promoted) than nowadays, where you have to win the WS in diamond league. And a tiny number get relegated each week. So yes, there are definitely some teams in perfect who don't "belong" there.



The whole issue is just a matter of timing and no one really knowing what to expect since it was the first time. It will be much easier to avoid those types of mistakes next time, when everyone knows the drill.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

The key for me with these modes is that I feel like I should be making progress to improve my teams, even if it isn't fast. I got less than a thousand PP last season, which isn't even enough for a pack. Upgrades for my team are running at 15,000+. At that rate, I wouldn't even get an improvement before OOTP 20. That's a problem.

I'd love to blow up the team and start over but there's no way to do that except tanking, which is frowned upon so I'm just stuck. That leads me to abandoning the mode. That's a gameplay problem that needs to be addressed for the OOTP 20 mode.

Even in diamond this season, 3 teams in my division are all 90+ players so I'm in the same boat this season too.

Thanks. A couple of questions. Have you already set up some secondary teams? If not, that would give you the opportunity to take more time, not be rushed on your promotions, and build a new team.

Second, do you spend a good deal of your game allotted time to find the over and underachievers, sounds like you have. To refer to a team as having all 90+ teams doesn't really mean anything to me since there are good 90s and bad 90s. I see a lot of teams with bad 90s and a team of gold and some silver can be enough to compete and beat them. Not much you can do against those who both have money and make the best choices though. I certainly don't have the best team, but the team I have that's progressed the furthest (Perfect level) has one diamond, 10 Golds, 10 silvers, and 2 Bronzes. Granted, they only have won 45% of their games in 2 1/5 seasons at Perfect, but with that many silvers and bronzes, I have the choice of upgrading them to Gold and improve the team or wait until they get relegated to Diamond. I've enjoyed trying to beat the teams with all perfect and diamond players with my silver and gold (my diamond is nearly the worst player on my team, I got him in an early pack. I'm thinking of demoting him).

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

The whole issue is just a matter of timing and no one really knowing what to expect since it was the first time. It will be much easier to avoid those types of mistakes next time, when everyone knows the drill.

I'm excited for OOTP20 to be out. Though I'll have a team I spend money on to help support PT, with my free team I hope to be able to find some bronze players that will bet good PP earners then wait a few weeks before doing significant upgrades so the prices have a chance to even out and the team won't be swept up and rushed to higher leagues. Then once the two teams promoted kicks in, the prices won't be quite as high and the team can be steadily improved upward. Or I'll get fixated a shiny new player I just gotta have and will make the same mistakes again.

[matingly23]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Where's your whale this week after the random league assignments?

Gone to Diamond, I made sure neither of my Gold teams would get promoted to evade him last week.

Of my three teams, only one was worth playing last week. It was in a great Silver non-whale league, that was a lot of fun.

I got to the round before the WS and lost to a WC team that was just hot at the right time, it happens. Much better than being swallowed whole by Moby Dick.

[chazzycat]

About 20 or 30 pages ago I gave some feedback in this thread. At the time I felt like my team had gotten "trapped" in perfect level where it didn't belong.

Now it looks like I just had a really tough league that first week. My team was competitive in the second week (made the LCS) and appears to be competitive again this week. I did spend a bit of money on my team, but under $100 total. So I don't think you have to spend thousands to compete. Good strategy + moderate spending is working out OK for me. Mad props to any competitive FTP team though, that is impressive.