Competitive balance discussion

[STLRS95]

How can one reset their team and start over essentially? Is there a way to do that?

[Radsmats]

Originally Posted by shockenawe

Then how will I have 1 team in a perfect league and 2 teams in a diamond league without spending a dime as of tomorrow morning? Must just be luck right?

It's every bit as valid an observation as the guy who says his perfect pitcher lost a playoff start so there must be something wrong with the game ... it's called small sample size.
Over the long haul, guys who can afford to buy 100 packs have a huge advantage over those who can't. And those who can afford to buy 1,000 packs have a huge advantage over those who buy 100.
One of my hobbies is hiking and in New England, most mountains have a road up one side and a path up the other. Guys who drive up will get to the top sooner. I'm fine with that; I enjoy the walk. But whether hiking or playing a game, I prefer not to race guys with 4x4s. This game -- in my opinion -- simply lacks a walking path.

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by STLRS95

How can one reset their team and start over essentially? Is there a way to do that?

No. The solution most often presented here is to just sell your cards and start over. Of course that is also not allowed if you are already in a high league.

So the only way to start over as a team currently in Perfect League would be to carefully tank in some sort of acceptable fashion for an entire month to get back down to bronze.(apparently tanking IS ok, as long as you do it respectfully, even though that´s not what the TOS says) THEN you can sell all your players and start anew, kinda.

[bobbycockstrong]

Originally Posted by Westheim

You are right and I agree with this: a person with 400k PP has a competitive advantage over someone with 1k PP. Everything else you were harking on about is without much value, though, because it is not going to happen with any sort of likelihood.

What you are completely ignoring in your - I hesitate to call it that - argument is that your "strategy" to get there without spending money is to open a ridiculous free pack you have the most miniscule chance of pulling. Your argument is entirely hypothetical. It will take you many versions of the game and many accounts to open that particular free pack.

In between 96.2% and 99.5% of cases (depending on what you consider "a winner" for your free pack) you will be better off just buying silvers off the market with the 1k PP to improve your team and get a competitive advantage. THAT qualifies as "strategy", not your wannabe house of cards, which serves as much as foundation for an argument than if I were to say that I could make lots and lots of money if I had a trained pet raccoon that could converse fluently with strangers in four languages, including Mandarin, while wearing a top hat.

Man I think you are confused or something. First the only point I am making is the first thing you said - which you conceded and agreed with: that someone with 400K has a competitive advantage. The stuff about opening packs was a purely hypothetical scenario to make the point.

Yes, maybe in that given scenario, its 4% of people who have a competitive advantage, but thats still 4%, thus unbalance. Now add in all the people who buy PP and thus have a competitive advantage - that number now increases from 4% to whatever the figure is. Regardless, the point continues to be that X% of people have a competitive advantage, which you conceded and we agree on. that is the ONLY point I have been making yet people continue to drone on and on and never actually dispute that - in fact, you conceded it was accurate.

Secondly, this has nothing to do with my "strategy". Its not my strategy is a hypothetical scenario as explained above. No **** someone would be better off just buying silvers, but that is not the point - it never was. You need to get past that in your head. It doesnt matter what you would do, or what I would do, or what is the "best" approach - I was talking about a hypothetical situation to demonstrate the point which you conceded to about a person with X PP has a competitive advantage over someone with Y PP.

Third, your little bit about the raccoon (which I assume is some sort of attempt at humor?) makes no sense and has nothing to do with the argument, because in your scenario while its unlikely your great plan to get rich would see fruition, I could attempt the same plan as you and attempt to get rich as well - but the thing here is in your scenario, we both have racoons and we both have the same competitive advantage to magically train it in languages and speak to people.

So yeah, like I said I think you are confused and/or struggle to grasp/comprehend a simple argument (which you already conceded my point by the way) - therefore not sure what to tell you beyond that.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by bobbycockstrong

Man I think you are confused or something.

(snip)

So yeah, like I said I think you are confused and/or struggle to grasp/comprehend a simple argument (which you already conceded my point by the way) - therefore not sure what to tell you beyond that.

Maybe it would help if you just concisely stated your point without any examples or embellishment.

[Maddox]

There needs to be a way to request a reset after the season, Especially if trying to do it yourself is going to be flagged as tanking.

But, to do a full reset I believe that at the bare minimum the game should automatically wipe out ALL of your players and your managerial record and let you start just as you would with a new account (6 packs and 1000 points).

Of course, if you allow people to carry over their purchased points on a reset, there is nothing stopping them from just buying another Perfect League level team and dominating the lower leagues again. But, I guess that is not a huge deal because there is nothing stopping new players from doing that anyway.

It would also need to limit the frequency or number so that people could not abuse it. No resets until you are at least in the bronze league and then only one reset per a designated time period.

I think it should be an option, but one that is painful enough that people won't make the decision lightly.

[Weaseltail]

Originally Posted by freedavebrown

So the only way to start over as a team currently in Perfect League would be to carefully tank in some sort of acceptable fashion for an entire month to get back down to bronze.(apparently tanking IS ok, as long as you do it respectfully, even though that´s not what the TOS says) THEN you can sell all your players and start anew, kinda.

"Tanking etiquette" should probably be clarified a bit (if it's becoming a problem, I haven't really noticed it much). Obviously fielding a team of 40's in Perfect is a violation of the TOS. But what about playing appropriate-level players out of position? Using an opener strategy (which doesn't work and leads to very long losing streaks)? Setting your global strategies to silly extremes? If you only do these things on the last couple of days to ensure relegation is that different than doing them for the whole season?

There needs to be some balance between letting a player ruin a division/league, and forcing a player to stay at a level they aren't enjoying. It's hard (for me at least) to know where to draw the line.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Maddox

There needs to be a way to request a reset after the season, Especially if trying to do it yourself is going to be flagged as tanking.

But, to do a full reset I believe that at the bare minimum the game should automatically wipe out ALL of your players and your managerial record and let you start just as you would with a new account (6 packs and 1000 points).

Of course, if you allow people to carry over their purchased points on a reset, there is nothing stopping them from just buying another Perfect League level team and dominating the lower leagues again. But, I guess that is not a huge deal because there is nothing stopping new players from doing that anyway.

It would also need to limit the frequency or number so that people could not abuse it. No resets until you are at least in the bronze league and then only one reset per a designated time period.

I think it should be an option, but one that is painful enough that people won't make the decision lightly.

I like this idea as it is similar to what some of the facebook apps (CBS Sports) do.

I think it would work if a player could click a "reset" team button. The team would remain as is until the end of their current season. Once the season is over, the team is completely cleared out of all players and all points, placed in an entry league, and given their six packs (maybe even open the cards and set the lineup by AI in case the player doesn't do it himself). Alternatively, just leave him out of the entry pool until he opens the packs and sets the lineup (probably a better solution if possible).

The caveat as it is with CBS sports games is that money spent is money lost. They have a pop up that lets you know if you reset, you're back at ground zero with nothing. It would be better for the player if the money spent PP was restored (rather than the PP earned with previous team), but that would make it more likely and many times advantageous to reset the team. I personally would love to reset one of my teams and have the money spent PP to use what I know now to build the team rather than what I did then.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Weaseltail

"Tanking etiquette" should probably be clarified a bit (if it's becoming a problem, I haven't really noticed it much). Obviously fielding a team of 40's in Perfect is a violation of the TOS. But what about playing appropriate-level players out of position? Using an opener strategy (which doesn't work and leads to very long losing streaks)? Setting your global strategies to silly extremes? If you only do these things on the last couple of days to ensure relegation is that different than doing them for the whole season?

There needs to be some balance between letting a player ruin a division/league, and forcing a player to stay at a level they aren't enjoying. It's hard (for me at least) to know where to draw the line.

But if you just move people down because the going got tough then you are making it tougher on the lower level by moving this uncomfortable player down. Of course it is more fun to win. If a team is not bad enough to get relegated it does not need to be preying on a weaker league.

[bobbycockstrong]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Maybe it would help if you just concisely stated your point without any examples or embellishment.

haha perhaps!

There is no embellishment though. Its an extreme/rare scenario, but its not embellished. The same scenario I described literally happened to me, just with a 25k card (not 400k) and I proceeded to destroy my competition since i built a good team with the 25k, collected more and more PP than my competition, made my team even better, etc. Next thing you know i have 121 wins, a WS, and a 1377 end of season score. Was I the best manager ever? Who knows. There is no way to say. That would be an opinion, regardless of who gives it. But what we do know, as a fact, is that I had a clear competitive advantage over the vast majority of my opponents right from the start. I literally opened just 1 pack, with the initial 1k PP and it led to a massive competitive advantage.

[Weaseltail]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

But if you just move people down because the going got tough then you are making it tougher on the lower level by moving this uncomfortable player down. Of course it is more fun to win. If a team is not bad enough to get relegated it does not need to be preying on a weaker league.

I agree teams shouldn't sandbag to drop a level and dominate. But I don't get the sense that's what the people who are raising concerns want.

Most of them seem to be in the same boat I am - our money's spent, our teams are basically set, and we just want to be in a league with some parity where we have a chance to compete over time, enjoy the game, and have a reason to log in on Fri/Sat (maybe even with a hope of making the playoffs).

I can speak from experience, I love PT but it's not fun to be 15 games out on Wed/Thurs for weeks on end. It's not fun to repeatedly play teams with a dozen perfects when you're fielding mostly golds and cheap diamonds. It's not fun to know that not one of your SP's would even make another team's bullpen. At least it's not fun for me (and I assume others as well).

The game's dynamic and some teams cap out before others. Some teams keep improving, others don't. Unlike the SP game, you can't improve through the draft or developing players. Once the money's spent, you're done making meaningful improvements at high levels absent an absurdly lucky pull.

The goal IMO, once you cap out and can't improve much, should be to find a level where you are competitive but not dominant. It's not about winning (for me at least), it's about having a reasonable chance to compete over time so that the seasons stay relevant and fun.

[TreMetal]

Originally Posted by bobbycockstrong

haha perhaps!

There is no embellishment though. Its an extreme/rare scenario, but its not embellished. The same scenario I described literally happened to me, just with a 25k card (not 400k) and I proceeded to destroy my competition since i built a good team with the 25k, collected more and more PP than my competition, made my team even better, etc. Next thing you know i have 121 wins, a WS, and a 1377 end of season score. Was I the best manager ever? Who knows. There is no way to say. That would be an opinion, regardless of who gives it. But what we do know, as a fact, is that I had a clear competitive advantage over the vast majority of my opponents right from the start. I literally opened just 1 pack, with the initial 1k PP and it led to a massive competitive advantage.

The scenario you described happened to me. I got an Arky Vaughan that sold for 60k then bought like 55 packs and got a perfect Clemens which I sold for 350k. Not quite 400k, but yeah. My team was a bronze team on a "no AH, only buy pack strategy".

Might face some competition in Diamond this week though. Meanwhile I have been reaping the benefits of my luck for a while now.

[spleen1015]

What's the point in sandbagging to dominate a lower league? You're just going to get moved back up the next year.

[matingly23]

There are just too many whale stories here and on the discord chats to make me think competitive balance will ever exist in PT. A shame.

I think you either accept that if your account if free, you need to grind to build up whale-like points, or break out a few hundred $$. Neither sounds very fun.

But I do see a possible ray of sunshine on the not so distant horizon. Time passing should help the situation massively. The problem is magnified right now as PT is brand new.

I am thinking OOTP 19's PT will be a lot of fun after OOTP 20 comes out as I would imagine most Whales will switch over to 20 (and then to 21, 22, etc).

The most fun PT leagues IMO will be the ones that are for versions that are a year or two old and not so whale-infested. The problem will solve itself pretty much.

And I would still be willing to pay a small fee per month to play the old version if there's not enough whale $$ to cover the server/bandwidth/support costs.

Can't wait till this is the old version!

[spleen1015]

Have you checked your teams today? Leagues were randomized this week so chances are you aren't with that whale anymore. You can stop whining about it every chance you get.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by bobbycockstrong

Man I think you are confused or something.

Like I said, everything else you are harking on about has not much value.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

What's the point in sandbagging to dominate a lower league? You're just going to get moved back up the next year.

I've never understood it either. Completely wasting one week just so you can have a good week in the lower league seems like a monumental waste of time.


There are arguments that they will make more points in the lower league but there is no guarantee that they would make that many more. And, in the end, any points you make in the lower league were probably offset by the points you lost by tanking so it will probably be a wash.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by matingly23

There are just too many whale stories here and on the discord chats to make me think competitive balance will ever exist in PT. A shame.

I think you either accept that if your account if free, you need to grind to build up whale-like points, or break out a few hundred $$. Neither sounds very fun.

But I do see a possible ray of sunshine on the not so distant horizon. Time passing should help the situation massively. The problem is magnified right now as PT is brand new.

I am thinking OOTP 19's PT will be a lot of fun after OOTP 20 comes out as I would imagine most Whales will switch over to 20 (and then to 21, 22, etc).

The most fun PT leagues IMO will be the ones that are for versions that are a year or two old and not so whale-infested. The problem will solve itself pretty much.

And I would still be willing to pay a small fee per month to play the old version if there's not enough whale $$ to cover the server/bandwidth/support costs.

Can't wait till this is the old version!

The problem is that most people move on to the new iteration of the game. Not just the whales.


Previous versions of games in yearly competitive games such as this tend to become barren. You'll play a lot of abandoned teams or at the very least teams nobody cares to improve anymore.


Which means the AH will be also very barren of decent players at decent prices.


Will PT 19 be completely desolate ? I think it will be very barren, of course I don't know that for a fact. But that's usually how it works in other games, and I don't see anything here that would retain a whole bunch of customers. Other than spending money to improve your team, there's not exactly a whole lot to do.


But you do realize that even when the Whales move on to 20, their teams remain in 19, right ? So you'll never quite 100% escape them...

[<Pion>]

I agree and don't like overt tanking, but let me put out one thing I thought of (since I feel it happened with my team)…

Now that things have stabilized, there are only a few teams that get promoted (those in championship games IIRC) and only a few that get sent down. However, early on there were a lot of teams being promoted to quickly fill up the higher levels. Though my team was barely over .500 at Diamond level, they were in an easy division and lucked out and made the playoffs where they were quickly eliminated. Because most or all playoff teams got promoted early on, they were moved to Perfect. They haven't stuck up the joint but usually finish 20 or more games out of first. I personally think that if they were in Diamond, they would not dominate (prey on weaker teams), but would probably be a .500 team that sometimes made the playoffs but would need a fair amount of good fortune to make the championship. Anyway, I think Diamond is about as high as they would be if they were working under current rules (championship teams advancing) and possibly still in Gold even. I think it is inevitable (as they are a theme team) that they will someday get pushed out of Perfect leagues as more powerful teams fill up the Perfect league, so I hope to be patient and wait it out and enjoy the stay while I can.

So is that a team that would be best to train up players at other positions knowing that a) it will make them better for the future and b) may not result in the most wins possible?

I can see the need for the devs to quickly fill those higher leagues, but I'm betting there are a lot of teams in Perfect leagues that truly don't belong there had they came up later in the game under different rules for promotion. Eventually (without unfair tanking by teams that do belong in Perfect), the "worthy" teams that should get demoted will and it will all work out in the end. But I think there will always be those that should not be demoted finding new and more subtle ways to tank so they can prey on the weak.

[freedavebrown]

The only legitimate reason for tanking in my mind is if you want to change the theme of your team. This is something that nobody has presented a real solution for yet other than the "tank queitly" solution proposed by the devs.

For example, my team is currently in Perfect. I am bored with this team but I have a lot of cool silver and bronze cards on my team. I decide I want to be an all silver and bronze team. If I just switch over, Markus has said that that would violate the TOS because trying to win at that level with those cards is so stupid that its not legit.

So then what do I do? I dont want to just restart because I like the cards I have. But I cant do what I want at this level so I need to tank down to silver to try out my new theme. How do I get there? I have to carefully manage my team to lose in the right way. It´s not ideal. But I think it can be done in a way that doesnt ruin it for other people