Competitive balance discussion

[grall1126]

True, how close to the 62 Mets?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/1982.shtml

Mets - 40-120 - wow - my mom went to the games since she was a Dodgers fan and hated the Yankees. Therefore, I became a Met fan until this day.

[KleineBiere]

...

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by grall1126

True, how close to the 62 Mets?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/1982.shtml

Mets - 40-120 - wow - my mom went to the games since she was a Dodgers fan and hated the Yankees. Therefore, I became a Met fan until this day.

They tracked it in the Saint Paul Pioneer Press something called the Mets-O-Meter and had a standings each day with the 62 Mets.

[bobbycockstrong]

Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr

From the license file that installs with your game:

Use of Perfect Team Mode
When you access Perfect Team mode, you agree that you will not, nor encourage another party to:

...

(c) Cheat, deliberately lose, trade wins or Perfect Points, "feed" wins or Perfect Points from one account to another via the auction house or any other method, or otherwise fail to make a good-faith effort to play the game in a fashion intended to win via fair gameplay according to the intended operation of the game.

What if the person's logic was the only way they can achieve the last part about making a good faith effort to win (in the long term) via "fair" gameplay was to get relegated to Diamond by losing in the short term?

Seriously though I think its lame, but I guess that is the situation where some teams will find themselves - feeling they can not win, and can not even get PP to improve their team, so why not try to go down a level?

[Will_L]

When my NYC Subway Rats first went to Diamond I felt like a fat missionary on an island full of starving cannibals, really sucked fumes and got relegated. Got promoted again and went 70-92 but not getting relegated this time. Didn't have to tank LOL.

[Radsmats]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Addition: everybody, read that article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play - and there is more information to be found in the literature.

Actually the article points out the problem many of us have with PT, which is that it is pay to win / P2W (not free to play / F2P); the distinction (spelled out in detail in the article you reference) being that F2P games often get users to pay for small buffs through microtransactions (often loot crates, which are already drawing negative response from many gamers in many games as exploitative). A buck for a bronze pack could be a microtransaction. But paying $50 or $100 for a big old pile of cards is not a microtransaction ... at least not in my household. It's paying to win ... or at least pay to compete at a high level.
Which is fine ... guys who want to spend a lot of money to play an all-world game are welcome to. But when the P2W model is disrupting entry level leagues, it rather forces the hand of players. The great thing about OOTP is that it can be played a multitude of different ways -- solo or league, historical, current players or fantasy. The PT model invariably rewards the guys who spend the most (and on the same players, so there's not even a challenge in finding a gem ... the teams who went P2W in my league both bought the players who were performing best for their competition). Yes, there are some teams that punch above their weight, but season in and season out, it's not about making good managerial decisions or building the best lineup, it's about raw purchasing power. I like poking around, getting guys I like, building a team I could cheer for (heavy on the Expos!) that play baseball the way I like it ... and I was crushing the competition. Then two teams spent a bunch of money to jump the queue. I beat one and lost to one, but honestly, where's the fun in that ... working to build a good team just so somebody else can buy a perfect and two diamonds ... to win in a bronze league?
Not finding a tier where I can play just for fun, I'll spend my gaming time (and dollars) in a game where spending an extra $20 or $50 to load up my rotation ahead of the playoffs is "smart."
I wish Marcus well and hope PT makes him a bucket of (somebody else's) money. I'm out.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by bobbycockstrong

What if the person's logic was the only way they can achieve the last part about making a good faith effort to win (in the long term) via "fair" gameplay was to get relegated to Diamond by losing in the short term?

Seriously though I think its lame, but I guess that is the situation where some teams will find themselves - feeling they can not win, and can not even get PP to improve their team, so why not try to go down a level?

I guess the same reason when you feel you're broke you don't stick up a gas station? Just do the right thing.

[daves]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

Sad to see a team in a Perfect league rolling out 40 and 50 OVR players and lose so many games. <sigh>

I did mention this happening in a Perfect league that I am in. There were actually two teams that seem to tank. I can't understand why? Tired of the money it costs to compete? Want to go back down to bronze? Sell players to reload? I guess there is a reason?

Just confusing. I guess if someone doesn't want to play we should allow teams to be inactive and temporary removed?

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by daves

I did mention this happening in a Perfect league that I am in. There were actually two teams that seem to tank. I can't understand why? Tired of the money it costs to compete? Want to go back down to bronze? Sell players to reload? I guess there is a reason?

Just confusing. I guess if someone doesn't want to play we should allow teams to be inactive and temporary removed?

There is a big difference between wanting to be inactive and tanking. If they want to be inactive don't change their team and stop logging in. They'll continue on just fine.

By putting low rated players in they screw things up for others.

Really it just seems like there are some that like to beat up on other teams, but don't like getting beat up on, so they tank.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by shockenawe

99% people whining about those that spend money, and 1% a discussion of competitive balance.

qft

[bailey]

Why is up to the user to report the tankers? Can't they generate a report on teams below .250 (starting on Tuesday) or teams that lose 15 or more in a row? And exactly what sanctions should be imposed?

[shockenawe]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

Yes, there are some teams that punch above their weight, but season in and season out, it's not about making good managerial decisions or building the best lineup, it's about raw purchasing power.

Then how will I have 1 team in a perfect league and 2 teams in a diamond league without spending a dime as of tomorrow morning? Must just be luck right?

[Radsmats]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

Not finding a tier where I can play just for fun, I'll spend my gaming time (and dollars) in a game where spending an extra $20 or $50 to load up my rotation ahead of the playoffs is "smart."

**isn't**

[bobbycockstrong]

Originally Posted by shockenawe

Then how will I have 1 team in a perfect league and 2 teams in a diamond league without spending a dime as of tomorrow morning? Must just be luck right?

Might be, if you packed an expensive card and sold it and used the proceeds to build a very good team. Or you happened to pack some decent cards and kept them. Or maybe you are the greatest manager in PT. Who knows.

[shockenawe]

Originally Posted by bobbycockstrong

Might be, if you packed an expensive card and sold it and used the proceeds to build a very good team. Or you happened to pack some decent cards and kept them. Or maybe you are the greatest manager in PT. Who knows.

None of these are true. I have horrible luck so I don't even bother opening packs.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by bobbycockstrong

Might be, if you packed an expensive card and sold it and used the proceeds to build a very good team. Or you happened to pack some decent cards and kept them. Or maybe you are the greatest manager in PT. Who knows.

There are a number of people (and probably much more than we realize) with F2P teams in Perfect leagues. No, it doesn't take a lucky draw in a pack. Just spend your PP wisely and have a plan (that works).

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by bobbycockstrong

Where did I say that was my "strategy" or anything about "Skill" in pack luck? I was using an example to make a point. Even if 4% of people pack great cards and thus have a resource advantage, they now have a competitive advantage. How is this tough to grasp? You are trying to dispute facts with opinions/what you think/want the game to be.

I already conceded that the game is fine as is, I dont care. But the game is NOT balanced. Please provide me some sort of evidence that the game is balanced? I have yet to see that. Otherwise you are just providing your opinion that you dont want a cap - which is fine, but it has nothing to do with balance or trying to refute the examples I provided. Regardless of the likelihood, the examples I provided are facts - a person with 400K PP has a competitive advantage over someone who has 1k PP, regardless of where they got the PP from.

You are right and I agree with this: a person with 400k PP has a competitive advantage over someone with 1k PP. Everything else you were harking on about is without much value, though, because it is not going to happen with any sort of likelihood.

What you are completely ignoring in your - I hesitate to call it that - argument is that your "strategy" to get there without spending money is to open a ridiculous free pack you have the most miniscule chance of pulling. Your argument is entirely hypothetical. It will take you many versions of the game and many accounts to open that particular free pack.

In between 96.2% and 99.5% of cases (depending on what you consider "a winner" for your free pack) you will be better off just buying silvers off the market with the 1k PP to improve your team and get a competitive advantage. THAT qualifies as "strategy", not your wannabe house of cards, which serves as much as foundation for an argument than if I were to say that I could make lots and lots of money if I had a trained pet raccoon that could converse fluently with strangers in four languages, including Mandarin, while wearing a top hat.

Originally Posted by Radsmats

Actually the article points out the problem many of us have with PT, which is that it is pay to win / P2W (not free to play / F2P); the distinction (spelled out in detail in the article you reference) being that F2P games often get users to pay for small buffs through microtransactions (often loot crates, which are already drawing negative response from many gamers in many games as exploitative). A buck for a bronze pack could be a microtransaction. But paying $50 or $100 for a big old pile of cards is not a microtransaction ... at least not in my household.

Of course $100 (or rather $1,000) are not a microtransaction. But you are mixing up microtransactions (which many players of a f2p game might pay for) with those whales, which will be in low single digits of % points of the player base. Also, several jurisdictions have found that the variable content of extra packs in collectible card games are separate from loot box mechanics, and PT clearly states odds for the packs, which far from all games with loot box mechanics did or do.

[My personal estimate for PT might be a higher number of whales as a percentage than in the run-of-the-mill online game because OOTP is inherently not a kids' game, and kids are unlikely to have the means to spend anything at all on games. I spent about $40 on PT; in many other games I might be in the top 5% of spenders, but I seriously doubt that with PT. Maybe top 15-20%.]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

But when the P2W model is disrupting entry level leagues, it rather forces the hand of players.

Except that it does not disrupt entry pools, where you play for no glory at all and you might face the dirty whale only two or three times.

Originally Posted by Radsmats

Then two teams spent a bunch of money to jump the queue. I beat one and lost to one, but honestly, where's the fun in that ... working to build a good team just so somebody else can buy a perfect and two diamonds ... to win in a bronze league?
Not finding a tier where I can play just for fun, I'll spend my gaming time (and dollars) in a game where spending an extra $20 or $50 to load up my rotation ahead of the playoffs is "smart."
I wish Marcus well and hope PT makes him a bucket of (somebody else's) money. I'm out.

The old pseudo argument of "somebody else paid, thus I could not win, thus I had no fun". Didn't move me the first 20 times somebody brought it up, doesn't move me this time. My team is 486-487 all time. Still having fun.

Originally Posted by traylor45

On a long enough timeline, everyone dies.

Thank goodness, I could not stand reading this thread for all eternity.

[uschi_baerchen]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

There are a number of people (and probably much more than we realize) with F2P teams in Perfect leagues. No, it doesn't take a lucky draw in a pack. Just spend your PP wisely and have a plan (that works).

I spent 40 Euros, my Team is based on Syndergard, Corbin, Dierker, Scherzer, Kopech, Minter, Doolittle, Smith, Stammen, Whitley, Alvarado, Yelich, Lindor, Goldsmith, Grandal, Cain , Baez, Bregman , Carpenter, Machado, Harper, Bagwell, Martinez, Nimmo. I sold Suzuki because he underperformed which was in line with his values. I sat in Diamond around 50%+ for three seasons, in the fourth season a small Whale dropped down from perfect (Trout, Betts, Pedro, Sale). He scored 115+ wins, I went to the Playoffs as second seed and we met in the champanionship round. Somehow it went to 3 - 3 and the deciding game was on his hometurf. He lead 3 - 0 after 8 innings, somehow the AI had used about 8 of his pitchers by that time, I wonder why, when my Team was scoreless by that time. My team scored 6 runs in the 9. inning his no more runs. So, BY SOME EXTRAORDINARY LUCK, my Team will go to perfect next season. I don´t like it, since my guess is, my Team will be eaten for breakfest, I don´t either think, that this is due to my absurd good knowledge about OOTP PT, maybe I have some good concepts, maybe it is shere luck. VBut: it Can be done!

[uschi_baerchen]

...

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by bailey

Why is up to the user to report the tankers? Can't they generate a report on teams below .250 (starting on Tuesday) or teams that lose 15 or more in a row? And exactly what sanctions should be imposed?

We can set the team to AI and ban the user. However, that would not change much, as this team in question has sold all its good players, and since we do not add fake cards into the universe (that would open a Pandora's box) we can not do much here, other than remove it (deactivate it essentially) after the season has ended.