So why is there a 10% tax?

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by Westheim

I disagree wholeheartedly. There is EVERY reason to not protect people from themselves.

And there is a clearly legible notice that the house takes 10%. If someone still offers up a card for the minimum they are either willfully ignorant or willfully stupid. Neither one deserves a safety net.

Allowing people to do things which are strictly non-rational is just bad game design. The game should not present you with an option that makes no logical sense to choose. I think it is fair to assume that a game I am playing behaves in this way and that any deviations from this principle are very explicit and ask for confirmation.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by freedavebrown

Allowing people to do things which are strictly non-rational is just bad game design. The game should not present you with an option that makes no logical sense to choose. I think it is fair to assume that a game I am playing behaves in this way and that any deviations from this principle are very explicit and ask for confirmation.

So if you put your lead-footed catcher, who is batting .190/.220/.250 in the leadoff spot, is the game supposed to refuse your team submission? Because that also makes no logical sense.

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by Westheim

So if you put your lead-footed catcher, who is batting .190/.220/.250 in the leadoff spot, is the game supposed to refuse your team submission? Because that also makes no logical sense.

No, because I might have a strategy I am trying to use that the game does not understand. Or trying a totally new strategy. Or maybe I am role playing. There are rational reasons that I can give for that move.

There are none for selling a silver card at auction for 100PP

EDIT: BTW, I would have no problem with a pop up coming up when I did that that checked and said "Hey, that move seems weird, you sure you meant to do that? Here is an explainer on how lineups are generally used" With an option to not warn me again. That would be good design. When something occurs in a game and the user thinks "Well I never would have done that if I had known that was the result, obviously" and there are enough people doing it that it is being discussed on the game message board. That is bad game design.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by freedavebrown

EDIT: BTW, I would have no problem with a pop up coming up when I did that that checked and said "Hey, that move seems weird, you sure you meant to do that? Here is an explainer on how lineups are generally used" With an option to not warn me again. That would be good design.

How is that different from the notice that appears in the pop up where you set the auction price? The game is already doing everything it can for players. No need to further strangle the market by artificially raising prices now.

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by freedavebrown

Allowing people to do things which are strictly non-rational is just bad game design. The game should not present you with an option that makes no logical sense to choose. I think it is fair to assume that a game I am playing behaves in this way and that any deviations from this principle are very explicit and ask for confirmation.

A confirmation to make sure you clicked the right person is a lot different than not letting someone lose money in the auction house.

Where do you draw the line? If someone buys a card at 150, do they make them list it at 167 or more so they don't lose money? Should they prevent auto-selling cards when you can make more money in the auction house?

I feel to see how this is a big deal either way. I just don't see why it's important to protect someone from losing 10 PP because they don't read or do math.

[mpbaseball22]

The house taking 10% leads to stable pricing rather than constant inflation

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by Westheim

How is that different from the notice that appears in the pop up where you set the auction price? The game is already doing everything it can for players. No need to further strangle the market by artificially raising prices now.

Because there is no popup that comes up when I take this objectively irrational decision in the AH and set the minimum for a silver at 100. There is not even a confirmation like there is when you quick sell a card. Once you hit submit the card is gone and the auction starts.

What pop up are you referring to? The pop up where I set the minimum price?

My point is that it should either 1) not let you set a price that makes no sense, or 2) warn you (once if you want) that what you´re doing makes no sense and explain the 10% again in case you didn´t bother to read all the way down or did not understand what you read.

I really dont understand why this is controversial. If you are going to allow people to screw themselves for no reason other than "haha, people are dumb, look at me I am not" then just warn people explicitly WHEN they are about to do the irrational thing and then nobody can complain.

[NYY #23]

Originally Posted by freedavebrown

I really dont understand why this is controversial. If you are going to allow people to screw themselves for no reason other than "haha, people are dumb, look at me I am not" then just warn people explicitly WHEN they are about to do the irrational thing and then nobody can complain.

Who is saying "haha, people are dumb"? Most silver and below don't have much value to me because of where I'm at. 10 cents isn't going to help me get better, so if I want to list a card at 100, or 25 and then auto-sell after a few hours how is that bad? To someone starting out or collecting that card may have value.

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

That isn't the point. He thinks (and I agree somewhat) that the minimum price for a silver card should be 110, a gold card 1100, a diamond 4400, etc. so that people aren't selling cards for less than they could be by quick selling.

Umm, dude...you messed up the math. It's X/.9, not X*1.1.

111, 1111, 4444

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by NYY #23

Who is saying "haha, people are dumb"? Most silver and below don't have much value to me because of where I'm at. 10 cents isn't going to help me get better, so if I want to list a card at 100, or 25 and then auto-sell after a few hours how is that bad? To someone starting out or collecting that card may have value.

Just from this thread . . .

"Math. Illegal in 2025"
"If someone still offers up a card for the minimum they are either willfully ignorant or willfully stupid. Neither one deserves a safety net."

Why would you list a card for 100 and not 111? I´m not saying you shouldnt be able to sell silver cards at auction. But when it autosells you get the full 100. Which is really just more evidence that the minimum should be 111.

I set the minimum bid to 100 and say if no one bids on this then sell it for 100. if someone bids 100 and wins I get 90. If no one bids and I sell it I get 100. This is confusing. maybe the 10pp are not a huge deal but if you did it with a perfect you are screwing yourself out of 2K.

Again, where is the harm in double-checking one time that they really want to do something that makes so little sense?

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by freedavebrown

Because there is no popup that comes up when I take this objectively irrational decision in the AH and set the minimum for a silver at 100. There is not even a confirmation like there is when you quick sell a card. Once you hit submit the card is gone and the auction starts.

No pop-up is necessary. The relevant warnings etc. are *right* *there*. If someone is mindlessly putting up cards on the auction house for bogus prices, their damage is on them. Everything that is relevant to know about auctions is in this window. There is no need for another annoying pop-up.

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by Westheim

No pop-up is necessary. The relevant warnings etc. are *right* *there*. If someone is mindlessly putting up cards on the auction house for bogus prices, their damage is on them. Everything that is relevant to know about auctions is in this window. There is no need for another annoying pop-up.

This is also not true. It does not say there, for instance, that you can cancel the auction any time until someone places a bid. Or that the 90% applies to Buy Now and not just "winning bids."

And I never said the rule was not at least partially written there. I am saying that not everyone will think through the implications of that rule in terms of minimum price versus quick sell price after an initial first reading. The game pre-populates the minimum bid price with 5-25-100-1000 etc. I think if even if you read that it might not occur to you that the minimum price that the GAME SUGGESTS makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and will result in you losing PP if it sells for that price.

[<Pion>]

Here's to hoping the Devs don't take the suggestions to raise the minimum bid as mentioned in this thread

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

Here's to hoping the Devs don't take the suggestions to raise the minimum bid as mentioned in this thread

See, I take this post as you rooting for people to sell cards for less than quick sell price and that's a bit rude to want people to screw up. Especially for people new to the game. You don't even gain from this.

I kind of see it similar to if AI lineups create the worst possible lineup for you on purpose. Yeah, it's not the program's responsibility to prevent people from being dumb, but the default action when the program is assisting the player is that it is not assisting at all and is instead being harmful.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by freedavebrown

I am saying that not everyone will think through the implications of that rule in terms of minimum price versus quick sell price after an initial first reading. The game pre-populates the minimum bid price with 5-25-100-1000 etc. I think if even if you read that it might not occur to you that the minimum price that the GAME SUGGESTS makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and will result in you losing PP if it sells for that price.

You should always think in all the walks of life.

The game already spells out for you that the house takes 10%. If that doesn't trigger them old brains, nothing will.

We will not agree on this one. You want a game babysitting you at every turn, and I want a game that works smoothly without tons of additional pop-ups and without constantly nagging me about this and that.

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

See, I take this post as you rooting for people to sell cards for less than quick sell price and that's a bit rude to want people to screw up. Especially for people new to the game. You don't even gain from this.

I kind of see it similar to if AI lineups create the worst possible lineup for you on purpose. Yeah, it's not the program's responsibility to prevent people from being dumb, but the default action when the program is assisting the player is that it is not assisting at all and is instead being harmful.

Yes, this is exactly my feeling too. The whole vibe of the people in this thread suggesting that it´s not a problem is basically "sucks to be a dumb newb."

Which is all well and good, but if there is an easy way to make it so that less people are annoyed and made to feel ripped off then that is ultimately good for the game that we all obviously care about.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

See, I take this post as you rooting for people to sell cards for less than quick sell price and that's a bit rude to want people to screw up. Especially for people new to the game. You don't even gain from this.

I kind of see it similar to if AI lineups create the worst possible lineup for you on purpose. Yeah, it's not the program's responsibility to prevent people from being dumb, but the default action when the program is assisting the player is that it is not assisting at all and is instead being harmful.

Then you take my post as wrong. I think it would be an annoying feature (having more pop-ups) and don't see why things have to be a nanny state to protect people from themselves. In addition, there are times though I've known that I wouldn't get as much money as a quick sell, I still put it up at the minimum (25 PP for bronze players) figuring the 2 PP would make me no difference and might make a difference to a new guy trying to build a brand new team with limited resources. Should I be prevented from making that choice and have to deal with additional pop-ups because I do? If faced with additional pop-ups or doing a quick sell when trying to get rid of a lot of players, it's quicker to do the sell now option. Does that make me rude to want to help the new guy with as low a price as allowed within the rules?

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

Then you take my post as wrong. I think it would be an annoying feature (having more pop-ups) and don't see why things have to be a nanny state to protect people from themselves. In addition, there are times though I've known that I wouldn't get as much money as a quick sell, I still put it up at the minimum (25 PP for bronze players) figuring the 2 PP would make me no difference and might make a difference to a new guy trying to build a brand new team with limited resources. Should I be prevented from making that choice and have to deal with additional pop-ups because I do? If faced with additional pop-ups or doing a quick sell when trying to get rid of a lot of players, it's quicker to do the sell now option. Does that make me rude to want to help the new guy with as low a price as allowed within the rules?

I think it´s great if you do it for altruistic reasons but also really bizarre that your altruism wouldn´t extend to having a ONE TIME pop up that warns new players that they might get less than the quick sell price. . .

[absurddoctor]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

Then you take my post as wrong. I think it would be an annoying feature (having more pop-ups) and don't see why things have to be a nanny state to protect people from themselves. In addition, there are times though I've known that I wouldn't get as much money as a quick sell, I still put it up at the minimum (25 PP for bronze players) figuring the 2 PP would make me no difference and might make a difference to a new guy trying to build a brand new team with limited resources. Should I be prevented from making that choice and have to deal with additional pop-ups because I do? If faced with additional pop-ups or doing a quick sell when trying to get rid of a lot of players, it's quicker to do the sell now option. Does that make me rude to want to help the new guy with as low a price as allowed within the rules?

I don't think you should be prevented from selling below the quicksell rate, and I agree that more pop-ups would be moving in the wrong direction. I do think the default minimum should be bumped up to cover the 10% though. The whole point of filling that box in is to make the auction process easier. In most cases, people will not want sell at a loss, so auto-filling with a value that covers the common case would make more sense. I'm pretty slow to auction off cards because the process is made more tedious by having to change those values every single time (and, in my case, is actually physically painful thanks to RSI symptoms).

[Abnerdoubleday]

Auctioning at the quick-sell price is a nice little bonus for the scalpers. If I can snag a card at the quick-sell price with the intention of flipping it, there is zero risk. If I can't sell the card for more than quick-sell price plus the 10% fee, I just quick-sell it for exactly what I paid. Zero risk.


I'm in favor of discouraging scalping.