Competitive balance discussion

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Orcin

The complaint about accelerated promotion when it was raised before was timing. I suppose that complaint could apply again, but it is not like teams haven't been trying to win for two weeks.

I would think that the top teams would welcome the chance to skip a level and get to the Perfect World Series sooner.

Yes, we will most likely start to promote to three levels in OOTP 20 once the teams get out of the Entry Pool a few days after launch. We will communicate this clearly during OOTP 20 development

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Ormondbeachdan

Ok... Let me see if I am thinking clearly with this scenario.. Let's project that we go to say week 7 0r 8.. and lets say everything has "leveled out".. Now as new teams enter or are right behind a certain level they spend a ton to become whales, and would that mean there will ALWAYS be a whale or two in your league no matter what?..Dunno if I am right or making any sense here..

There may or may not be.

Right now it is like a horse race and we have just burst out of the gate. All the horses are bunched together. But, let us get through a few furlongs and the horses begin to separate. As the half mile marker passes the horses separate even more on the way to the home stretch then the leaders start to pull away. It takes the full race to get to the finish line(Perfect League). Sometimes a horse from back in the pack suddenly explodes and moves up to the leader.

You will occasionally have a whale in the lower leagues that started slow, Do not worry, he will pass you by and move along to the teams that he needs to be competing with.

Its just a game. Have fun

[Orcin]

Look at the best teams in your league. They will mostly look like this:

C Posey/Grandal
1B Goldschmidt/Freeman
2B Altuve/Ramirez
3B Arenado/Rendon
SS Lindor
LF Yelich
CF Trout
RF Betts
DH J.D. Martinez

SP deGrom
SP Sale
SP Kershaw
SP Syndergaard
SP MLB2018 diamond
CL Treinen/Diaz/Doolittle
RP Minter/MLB2018 diamond starter

Of course, there are exceptions, especially for some coveted historical cards such as Randy Johnson. But for the most part, this is the team you need if you want to play with the big boys.

Edit: I forgot to add the standard DH.

[Thalion]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Look at the best teams in your league. They will mostly look like this:

C Posey/Grandal
1B Goldschmidt/Freeman
2B Altuve/Ramirez
3B Arenado/Rendon
SS Lindor
LF Yelich
CF Trout
RF Betts

SP deGrom
SP Sale
SP Kershaw
SP Syndergaard
SP MLB2018 diamond
CL Treinen/Diaz/Doolittle
RP Minter/MLB2018 diamond starter

Of course, there are exceptions, especially for some coveted historical cards such as Randy Johnson. But for the most part, this is the team you need if you want to play with the big boys.

I've got Minter on my other team, so I guess that's a start.

[One Post Wonder]

I don't think this is true if the player has an idea of how they're trying to play, and knows the gold and silver cards well. Outside of the bullpen, I don't have a single one of these players and I'm not looking to replace a fair amount of them.

What you're seeing is a playstyle. Where a busy person puts $50 into pp or something, buys the most obvious looking good players, and lets them roll. And that's all you need to do in the early game. But IMO it's not the best or most efficient playstyle, and I think the very top teams are going to deviate from this template.

I hope I'm right, because otherwise we're talking about an extremely boring and pointless game.

[moalkha]

I have to disagree on this. In fact the best teams I see in my gold leagues have very few of the players you mentioned with the exception of Trout and Betts. Historical diamond and gold are way better than live players. The problem is you do not find those on the auction house or only for exorbitant prices.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

I don't think this is true if the player has an idea of how they're trying to play, and knows the gold and silver cards well. Outside of the bullpen, I don't have a single one of these players and I'm not looking to replace a fair amount of them.

Do you have a .700 lifetime winning pct and two playoff appearances? Do you look ready to cruise through gold level? If so, I applaud you.

I am not trying to say this is the right way or the only way to put together a team. I am merely making an observation. Look around at the top teams in your league and see if I am right.

[zrog2000]

My 1949 Vern Stephens (92 OVR) is on pace for 20.9 WAR this season.

And that's all on the road. Just wait til he's at home with the park catered just for all my RH power hitters and LH contact hitters.

My problem is that I've grown attached to a lot of my silvers and golds. I don't really want to replace my Dierker or Barker or Medina or even my Ichiro. It was hard enough to replace Bobby Crosby with Vern Stephens, but at least Crosby will make a fine IF backup.

[el_gringo]

I agree about the ubiquity Orcin, but not about the strategy being dominant/always the best in the league. Record in the regular season, sure, but not so much in October.

I've taken down several iterations of that team every time I've hit it in the playoffs with my defense/speed/contact pitching strategy. The series usually isn't even that close, even though they have more regular season wins. That type of team flounders in my park, and I can usually run circles around it without a single Perfect and only a few Diamonds. My gold contact pitchers will out-duel Sale and Kershaw pretty regularly if I'm at home, and have been about even odds in different parks.

The only playoff team I've lost a series to (in the LCS last season; they went on to win the WS) was to a team much more interestingly constructed (and probably much more expensive, using many rare historical cards) than the type you list. It still ran about half of the names you have, but substituted some for better defense/overall hitting balance (namely, fewer Ks) and a more balanced pitching style (fewer Ks, but fewer HRs and BB as well).

It's definitely the dominant 'easy to construct/plug-and-play' team right now, and it'll remain a frustratingly common barrier for F2P teams trying to break through into the upper levels, but it won't be what wins most of the WS at the top level eventually.

This is, of course, part of the 'will there be enough spreading with five league levels' question that remains one of the few partial unknowns about PT (at least for this year).

Edit: that all being said, you nailed about 90% of what I'm seeing a ton of whales spending their PP on, now that I look around the leagues

[Weaseltail]

Right now, I think there is room to experiment and use non-meta players while still being competitive. But that window's closing.

In a few weeks, the top teams will have set rosters that will gravitate towards a handful of optimal players. There will still be some variation, but at several positions there will be a clearly optimal choice and that player will be on most perfect/gold-tier rosters.

If things get too static, my guess is the developers will look at some solutions like new cards or allowing more extreme ballpark changes.

[Matt Arnold]

I now have 4 players from the "team" above.
The top team in my div (Fire Anty) has like 9, although Arenado/Rendon are basically platoon guys for them.
Knife, who I've been in leagues with a few years, only has like 4-5. The #3-6 in his lineup is Walker-Klein-Baker-Yaz.
Manchester has a lot of those guys, but adds in Bonds/Pujols to his lineup and Johnson/Koufax to his rotation.
IB Breakers looks like another strong team, but only Trout from those lineup guys (Gwynn/Seymour/Williams/Anson other big lineup bats). His rotation looks a bit like above.

But basically, those are the "best" of the live cards, so are most common, and thus the cheapest of the good bats to buy. Like, if I want a diamond 3B, Rendon costs 5700, but Mike Schmidt or Frank Baker cost 20k. So if I want the "best" team for the cheapest price, stocking up on live cards is best.

So, yeah, if someone is building a top team, odds are they have those guys on their roster. But everyone also has a few differences that make them unique.

[SayHey1]

Pitchers I have face so far in this young (5 games old) season:

Jacob Degrom (100)
Phil Neikro (91)
Noah Syndergard (98)
Blake Snell (92) --no hit shutout
Don Sutton (91) -- shutout

My upcoming pitching opponents:

Clayton Kershaw (99)
Jim Palmer (85)
Juan Marichal (79) -- a break!
Patrick Corbin (89)

It's gonna be a long year. I've already been shut out twice and no hit. Only one silver pitcher faced and mostly diamonds.

SIgh...

[Whoofe]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Look at the best teams in your league. They will mostly look like this:

C Posey/Grandal
1B Goldschmidt/Freeman
2B Altuve/Ramirez
3B Arenado/Rendon
SS Lindor
LF Yelich
CF Trout
RF Betts
DH J.D. Martinez

SP deGrom
SP Sale
SP Kershaw
SP Syndergaard
SP MLB2018 diamond
CL Treinen/Diaz/Doolittle
RP Minter/MLB2018 diamond starter

Of course, there are exceptions, especially for some coveted historical cards such as Randy Johnson. But for the most part, this is the team you need if you want to play with the big boys.

Edit: I forgot to add the standard DH.

altuve is the only one I have of that group

[CrazyWR]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I now have 4 players from the "team" above.
The top team in my div (Fire Anty) has like 9, although Arenado/Rendon are basically platoon guys for them.

Good luck, hopefully you have better luck than I did. His team is a machine!

[eldur00]

If that's true, then that's very worrying. We are in week 3 and the top teams basically have all very similar teams ?

That's why I'm a strong advocate not all the good cards should be obtainable in packs. Hopefully some of the good ones are going to be rewards in tournaments starting next year. Imagine a 12 month cycle where almost everybody has the same team one month into the season...

[waylander]

It's due to supply and demand. The players mentioned are always available in the auction house and generally not over priced. For example, right now you can get Sale and deGrom and either Betts or Trout for roughly the same price as one Tom Seaver. Which makes more sense when building your team?

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

So, yeah, if someone is building a top team, odds are they have those guys on their roster. But everyone also has a few differences that make them unique.

If by differences you mean guys like Williams, Bonds, Anson and Koufax, then I would say sure because those are expensive upgrades over the cookie cutter build. If you mean top teams running with none of these guys and instead using those gold, silver, and bronze nuggets, I would say show me.

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Do you have a .700 lifetime winning pct and two playoff appearances?

I wasn't at that level in the first two weeks because at that time, people who buy pp have an insurmountable advantage over people who don't. But I still went 78-84 in bronze. I wasn't a doormat.

Once I got my engine running, I went 118-44 in my silver league. I led the league in batting average, ERA, strikeouts, and runs scored on the way to winning the title last year. I don't know what the future holds but I don't think making it to perfect level is out of the question for me.

And I'm doing this without having a single position player rated higher than 87. Most of my position players are silvers. I do have diamonds on my pitching staff but I'll readily admit that diamond starting pitchers are generally worth the money. I had similar success in the beta with players of similar levels - only now I've built a team that emphasizes offense more because that's what pays me the pp.

Let's see what Zorro and I can accomplish over the next couple of weeks. And even if we don't succeed, wait a month or two and see what the "non-conformist" segment of the community are able to come up with. I am very confident about what I'm saying regarding these generic robot teams. You'll see.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by waylander

It's due to supply and demand. The players mentioned are always available in the auction house and generally not over priced. For example, right now you can get Sale and deGrom and either Betts or Trout for roughly the same price as one Tom Seaver. Which makes more sense when building your team?

Yes, this is true.

[freedavebrown]

This team in my league has a lifetime .767 winning percentage. I think they maybe have one or two of the players you mention.

It is annoying to keep getting demolished by this team but I respect that he built it out of cool historical cards for the most part.

C B. Posey
1B Mattingly
2B Altuve
3B W. Boggs
SS P. Rizzuto
LF Lefty O´Doul
CF Dykstra
RF Gwynn Sr.
DH F. Thomas

SP Maddux
SP Smoltz
SP Saberhagen
SP Glavine

CL Nenn