Hernandez at short?

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

The time it takes for a left handed player to turn around to throw would make him so slow to first that he’d be the worst shortstop in the league even if he had the best range and arm.

He'd be fine at playing going up the middle, but yes, for any plays towards 3B, it would be impossible for him to turn and plant to be able to get anything on the throw.

In modern shifting times, I could potentially see a left-handed 2B at some point, since they seem to play short RF about half the time, and the other half of the time they're practically on the bag at 2B at which point there aren't too many plays to the far side. But then again, they'd be totally out of position for turning a DP that it really wouldn't be feasible long-term. I just can't see a team risking it - if they had the arm and the range to do it, you just put them in CF and not worry about the throwing arm.

[Motorhead667]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

The time it takes for a left handed player to turn around to throw would make him so slow to first that he’d be the worst shortstop in the league even if he had the best range and arm.

I am not arguing real life baseball
I totally agree with you 😀
My argument is a baseball sim and that,
if it gives said gm a statistical advantage then I say kudos to that gm for finding a way to better his team

[One Post Wonder]

I think some of the suggestions are too strict. There have been plenty of successful changes going up the spectrum throughout history. Maybe not as drastic as 1b to SS over the last 100 years, but certainly other positions.

For example, I believe any mobile 3b is capable of playing short. Take Cal Ripken - he was a good defensive shortstop but really his skill set and size were more like that of a 3b. Howard Johnson was another guy like that. I'm sure Brooks Robinson, Graig Nettles, and George Brett at his best would have been able to hold down SS if they had to.

Also, a lot of these players positions as we know them didn't end up that way because of ability, but because of need. Bill Russell and Alan Wiggins both moved up the defensive spectrum with no warning, because that was where their teams needed them most. Aren't we just doing the same thing as RL managers when we're moving a guy around based on need?

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Motorhead667

Isn't baseball at it's core gaming the system?
It is a chess match right?
I am sure the first time someone brought a left handed pitcher into face a right handed batter someone cried foul,
I am sure when someone decided to shorten the right field fence people cried foul,
I am sure when someone learned to switch hit, someone cried foul,
I am sure when Oakland started to play Billy ball someone cried foul,
I am sure when clubs started to aggressively use the defensive shift someone cried foul,
I am sure when Houston grew their farm system and did a total rebuild someone cried foul,
I am sure when teams started using analytical data to prepare for games someone cried foul !
point is someone made all the rules we have in baseball and through the years some smart thinking manager or gm found a way to gain an advantage.
just like folks here that can't or won't sink real dollars into this mode
they are at a perceived unfair advantage (yes I know it is easily attainable to field a more than competitive team without spending real money)
but this is a stats driven game and if a person is smart enough to work within the framework of the rules then what is the harm
they are using the numbers to their advantage, and I say good for them
I hope they win it all
Just because some of us have a preconceived notion of how baseball should be remember all of the changes to this great game.

hope I did not offend anyone

First I am never offended Second it is gaming the system to use something that is an obvious mistake, which has been verified as such, to gain an unfair advantage. The instances you quote are the evolution of baseball not someone using a computer program that has an error to gain said advantage.


Hernandez would never play SS on any major league team. Every play he would have to turn his body completely around to make a throw. When I was young there was a thing that our high school and American Legion coaches called a punch bunt. We would choke way up at the last second like quickly squaring up for a bunt hit attempt but stay in regular batting stance. Then in a bunt situation try to hit the ball hard at a charging infielder using the control of choking half way up the bat or hit it at a really weak defender. A left handed SS would have bat control type hitters making him pay every time they came up to bat. This is why there are no left handed infielders except 1st base where the southpaw has that same half second or more advantage throwing to the other bases.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

No it's not right. It's a bug.

Lefty throwers aren't supposed to be able to get infield ratings at positions other than 1B, as Matt mentioned earlier.

He was such an incredible defender that if Hernandez was a righty thrower in reality, he probably could've been an excellent shortstop, but it's not supposed to be able to happen in-game with him or any other left handed throwing guys, no matter how good their defense.

"These are the facts and as such cannot be disputed."

[Motorhead667]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

First I am never offended Second it is gaming the system to use something that is an obvious mistake, which has been verified as such, to gain an unfair advantage. The instances you quote are the evolution of baseball not someone using a computer program that has an error to gain said advantage.


Hernandez would never play SS on any major league team. Every play he would have to turn his body completely around to make a throw. When I was young there was a thing that our high school and American Legion coaches called a punch bunt. We would choke way up at the last second like quickly squaring up for a bunt hit attempt but stay in regular batting stance. Then in a bunt situation try to hit the ball hard at a charging infielder using the control of choking half way up the bat or hit it at a really weak defender. A left handed SS would have bat control type hitters making him pay every time they came up to bat. This is why there are no left handed infielders except 1st base where the southpaw has that same half second or more advantage throwing to the other bases.

I am sorry, I feel as though you are missing my point.
When I made those references, I was trying to show that some manager or gm found ways within the rules to change the game.
I completely agree with you that it is unrealistical in the real mlb
But it is no more of advantage than someone who drops 4 or 5 hundred dollars in this game (and I’m not complaining) just pointing out that is advantage also

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Motorhead667

But it is no more of advantage than someone who drops 4 or 5 hundred dollars in this game (and I’m not complaining) just pointing out that is advantage also

That is an intended effect. We all have to deal with big spenders. I deal with it spending some and spending hours on the AH. MY FTP has zero money spent and in the conference finals. We will likely get smoked in Silver But they sure are fun to play! Hernandez was not, nor should it have been intended. It was purely a statistical error. I do not, nor will I ever, look for ways to get over. If I had him I would have just said wow!. Look at my defense at first base.

[Markus Heinsohn]

OK, we'll fix Hernandez, and also in a future Server update left-handed throwers will no longer gain experience at 2B, SS, 3B.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OK, we'll fix Hernandez, and also in a future Server update left-handed throwers will no longer gain experience at 2B, SS, 3B.

This is the perfect solution for Perfect Team

[Bunktown Ballers]

Originally Posted by discodude5

With no injuries and no player growth/regression in pt, it seems out of place to train players for other positions.

Playing Hernandez at short wouldn't your first thought be you are doing something that seems unrealistic?
And your second thought should be with Hernandez at short will his defense be so bad that it costs you games. Apparently it doesn't seem to be that bad and he gets way too good too quick so instead of having a gold glove ss who hits .240 with 1 hr you can just play anyone there and the small difference in defense is nothing compared to having a strong hitter playing ss.

I would like to see injuries put into PT, but make them short term injuries 7-10 days. Just enough to be promblematic for a team. This would also allow a player injured for 7 days to return in 7 days also & so forth. Also WHY doesn't PT include all the positions some players have played IRL. Seems odd to me that some don't,but I'm just a customer.



If anyone looking for a true utility player WHIT MERRIFIELD comes with a rating at every position except catcher & pitcher. And aside from him being rated a 76 this guy can play & hit. I don't see myself getting rid of him. Allows me to carry a extra pitcher (13) instead of (12) but that's just me


BB
Louisiana Crawdads

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by Bunktown Ballers

I would like to see injuries put into PT, but make them short term injuries 7-10 days. Just enough to be promblematic for a team. This would also allow a player injured for 7 days to return in 7 days also & so forth. Also WHY doesn't PT include all the positions some players have played IRL. Seems odd to me that some don't,but I'm just a customer.



If anyone looking for a true utility player WHIT MERRIFIELD comes with a rating at every position except catcher & pitcher. And aside from him being rated a 76 this guy can play & hit. I don't see myself getting rid of him. Allows me to carry a extra pitcher (13) instead of (12) but that's just me


BB
Louisiana Crawdads

That would lead to a lot of disasters for teams that cannot manage every game. That's just way too much of a time commitment for most people.

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OK, we'll fix Hernandez, and also in a future Server update left-handed throwers will no longer gain experience at 2B, SS, 3B.

Do players just gain defensive experience forever? Given that they don´t age it seems like you could eventually train anyone to do just about anything no?

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by freedavebrown

Do players just gain defensive experience forever? Given that they don´t age it seems like you could eventually train anyone to do just about anything no?

They can only go up to 100. And it depends on their base ability ratings. If those are too low, even at 100 experience, they'll never be able to effectively play a position.

[waybackwhen]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

Hernandez having that high a range rating at 1b is a mistake. I was doing some experimenting with 1b ratings and set Hernandez too high and forgot to change him back

He was incredibly good, and imo by far the greatest defensive 1b ever, but 179 is definitely too high in comparison to where other good defensive 1b fall on our matrix.

I lowered his range now. It'll still be very good, but not so absurdly high.

Now he's close to Todd Helton in terms of defense according to the rankings. Helton has a lower error value but everything else is similar.



Wouldn't lowering Hernandez's arm effectively make it impossible to play him at short if that's the concern? Wish I had known this was really Hernandez's rating before I spent PP for him, I do understand mistakes happen.



I kinda think if you allow position learning, it's only a matter of time before everyone does it and you no longer have a game that resembles what the cards tell you because everyone will just take players will strong core defensive values and play them out of position. It's already evident in one league I was in, and that guy won it with some guys who couldn't hit so it's obviously a very viable strategy already. Why play Brooks Robinson at third when I can get him good at first in half a season? Eventually first base could be manned with a high defensive third basement in many cases if people take this route. Would that eliminate most of the 1b from the game if people just ignore the cards?



Maybe players can have some type of built in rating at each position that we can't see but know is there after they play at the spot? Keith Hernandez would have one set of defensive ratings at first, but try to play him at short and he'd have a different set of values? Just a thought. Not sure it's a bad thing that you can learn positions but I feel it's only a matter of time until a good number of people do it and the most popular third baseman will be Andrelton Simmons.

[Dogberry99]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

Also, a lot of these players positions as we know them didn't end up that way because of ability, but because of need. Bill Russell and Alan Wiggins both moved up the defensive spectrum with no warning, because that was where their teams needed them most. Aren't we just doing the same thing as RL managers when we're moving a guy around based on need?

This is also how Don Mattingly wound up at 3B, which might be slightly germane to this conversation


Additionally, I agree with waybackwhen, that eventually teams will field a lot of players out of position to gain an advantage. Why would I use a card like Whit Merrifield, whose OVR is inflated from starting trained up (not fully) in multiple positions, when I can train a better all around player with superior defensive abilities to do the same thing? I am already ignoring 1B, except for possibly as a DH upgrade.

It seems antithetical to this mode of play to have a select handful of ratings (positional ratings and stuff for starters in relief) change as a result of our choices.

[Whoofe]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

There are no lefty 2B either. And almost no catchers. Don't remember the last one.

probly because leftys with strong arms are turned into pitchers

[One Post Wonder]

I hope whatever is decided regarding position changes, it gets implemented into OOTP 20 instead of nerfing a bunch of guys in OOTP 19.

Because regardless of what anyone's spin on this is, and even if it is historically accurate or not, these are the rules that were set for us when the game kicked off. We've had people buying cards with real money or with an investment of time, with the expectation that they'd be able to use those cards in a certain way.

Making a change to one or two cards is one thing, but widespread changes at this point would be a disaster IMO. If something like this isn't being used as intended it is very unfortunate, but that should be a lesson to take forward into OOTP 20. Until then, it has to be established that in-game values and rules are going to be stable. Large scale changes should be handled during the beta phase.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

I hope whatever is decided regarding position changes, it gets implemented into OOTP 20 instead of nerfing a bunch of guys in OOTP 19.

Because regardless of what anyone's spin on this is, and even if it is historically accurate or not, these are the rules that were set for us when the game kicked off. We've had people buying cards with real money or with an investment of time, with the expectation that they'd be able to use those cards in a certain way.

Making a change to one or two cards is one thing, but widespread changes at this point would be a disaster IMO. If something like this isn't being used as intended it is very unfortunate, but that should be a lesson to take forward into OOTP 20. Until then, it has to be established that in-game values and rules are going to be stable. Large scale changes should be handled during the beta phase.

I don't agree, considering it was a bug that LH players were ever allowed to learn other infield positions. They shouldn't leave bugs in the game forever.

[bailey]

So, in theory, what kind of defense ratings could Brock Holt get at each of the positions he plays? 100 in all of them?

[noragar]

Originally Posted by bailey

So, in theory, what kind of defense ratings could Brock Holt get at each of the positions he plays? 100 in all of them?

Based on his defensive abilities (3, 3, 68, 58, 62, 61, 64, 60, 57), he would probably max out somewhere in the high 50's to low 60's for most positions. A little higher at 1b, a little lower at SS, and he'll probably never get a catcher rating no matter how much he plays.