Thank God... at least someone agrees with me.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by colourmebrad

As for competitive balance, get a frickin' salary cap like a modern sports league and reap the benefits.

Analyses have demonstrated that competitive balance in MLB is no worse than that seen in the other three major leagues, at least in terms of post-season qualifiers and championship winners. (People have forgotten the reserve clause era was hardly a paragon of competitiveness: the New York Yankees won the AL pennant 15 times in 18 seasons from 1947-64, and won 10 of the 15 World Series.)

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

well, i heard rumblings on one talk show (can't recall WHICH one now) the players are starting to talk strike after this CBA is over.

Why? What possible justifiable reason is there? Free agency has never resulted in as little compensation for the former team as it does now thanks to the qualifying offer system revisions, and given the triple damages penalties MLB would have to pay if caught colluding again (and they got caught when they tried that in the second half of the 1980s and paid a hefty price back then), I have a hard time thinking MLB clubs would be dumb enough to collude again.

If there's one thing the MLBPA has negotiated badly in the last few CBAs, I'd say it's the luxury tax. The payroll threshold for that in the last two CBAs has fallen well behind revenue growth, and the most recent CBA implemented a much more harsh system for violators, including the possibility of having the highest available draft pick moved back ten places.

Originally Posted by RonCo

The real issue as far as baseball is concerned is that is that attendance has been dropping for several years in a row, meaning fans are voting with their wallets to tell the game that it needs to change something fundamental.

As I have pointed out, MLB attendance was only down about 1.5% in 2017 as compared to 2015. In the minors, however, it was down 2.4% in that same time period, and the minors sell themselves as affordable family entertainment. The fall of the minors might be indicative of something more substantive that simply the majors.

On the other hand, it's not as if baseball attendance has never fluctuated before; it certainly has. The overall trend since the 1940s has been upward, but it is unreasonable, I think, to say that it could grow forever. Sooner or later interest has to top out. Perhaps baseball has hit that point.

Originally Posted by Beatles Eternally

So, if you hate MLB, boycott it and support the Minors!

Attendance in the minors has declined more over the last two years than in the majors. This might indicate the problem is not simply the majors.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

As I have pointed out, MLB attendance was only down about 1.5% in 2017 as compared to 2015. In the minors, however, it was down 2.4% in that same time period, and the minors sell themselves as affordable family entertainment. The fall of the minors might be indicative of something more substantive that simply the majors.

Attendance in the minors has declined more over the last two years than in the majors. This might indicate the problem is not simply the majors.

The wife and I went to a Great Lakes Loons (Midland MI) game this week and were told that our retail water bottles (only 2) were not allowed. We were stunned because we go to many Blue Jay games with 4-6 such bottles with no problem. If this is a team policy it is misguided and we wont be back. I suspect it might be a MILB policy and will find out. If so they might lose me and my family as customers of MILB in the future.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by RchW

The wife and I went to a Great Lakes Loons (Midland MI) game this week and were told that our retail water bottles (only 2) were not allowed. We were stunned because we go to many Blue Jay games with 4-6 such bottles with no problem. If this is a team policy it is misguided and we wont be back. I suspect it might be a MILB policy and will find out. If so they might lose me and my family as customers of MILB in the future.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were a host of various factors contributing, including the sort of customer irritation you pointed out. But as of right now I'd put at the top of the list the theory that baseball, major and minor, had reached its peak level of attendance interest a few years back and is now in a (slow) declining phase.

[ThePretender]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Why? What possible justifiable reason is there? Free agency has never resulted in as little compensation for the former team as it does now thanks to the qualifying offer system revisions, and given the triple damages penalties MLB would have to pay if caught colluding again (and they got caught when they tried that in the second half of the 1980s and paid a hefty price back then), I have a hard time thinking MLB clubs would be dumb enough to collude again.

Because the players unintentionally accepted a salary cap in the last CBA. It took them an offseason or two to realize what they did. That's why there's strike talk, because they want to undo the cap. If you read the FG trade value series they even mention that several teams act as if the CBT is a hard salary cap.

It's not officially called a salary cap, but given the penalties for exceeding it teams have been acting and operating as if it is a cap, which is affecting player salaries.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by ThePretender

Because the players unintentionally accepted a salary cap in the last CBA. It took them an offseason or two to realize what they did. That's why there's strike talk, because they want to undo the cap. If you read the FG trade value series they even mention that several teams act as if the CBT is a hard salary cap.

The luxury tax began failing to keep up with revenue growth in the prior CBA (2012-16). Someone in the MLBPA negotiating team should have been paying attention to that, and especially after the luxury tax changes MLB ended up getting. It seems the PA was more focused on the free agent and benefits side it forgot to look at the luxury tax more closely.

But the fault lies entirely with PA negotiators. That's who the players should blame.

The PA is not going to get a rollback on the luxury tax unless the players are willing to give up something in exchange, since once an item is in the collective bargaining agreement, it is very hard to get it removed. (The exception to this is when both sides agree the item is a failure. That has rarely happened; the last time a major point was eliminated with the concurrence of both sides was in 1985 when professional player compensation for lost free agents was dropped. [Ironically, professional player compensation was something MLB had strongly wanted just four years earlier.])

[TheMaus2]

this rant by the Atlanta commentators last night pretty much outlines why the game is losing viewers. Purists get picky over the smallest things, like BP attire, and things that could make a 2 to 4 hour game fun are also lost because of the unspoken rules of baseball holding people back from celebrating.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by TheMaus2

this rant by the Atlanta commentators last night pretty much outlines why the game is losing viewers. Purists get picky over the smallest things, like BP attire, and things that could make a 2 to 4 hour game fun are also lost because of the unspoken rules of baseball holding people back from celebrating.

This. So much this. Personality should be allow to be interjected into the game. I don't care about a bat flip and some energy. Add style to the game.

I also think that the popularity will decline a bit until it stabilizes. I think NFL will go down in the future.

[Green & Gold Heart]

Just and handing out thanks.

Baseball has a marketing & image problem, and it has a lot to do with a bunch of old people complaining that the game isn't what it used to be.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

"no such thing as hot streaks and cold streaks" being another. LOL, I can hear the manager now who walks into the video room where his best hitter, on a 2 for 31 slump, is watching video and getting ready to go out take BP and work on some adjustments... "Don't worry about it man... it's all just random luck. You'll be back to hitting .300 in a week or two as the balls getting caught right now will soon find holes. Go grab a beer and relax."

if mike trout goes 0-12 in a series what do you think is more likely to happen in the next series, that he hits closer to 0-12 again because "he's cold" or that he hits closer to the 7 years worth of performance we've seen?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Green & Gold Heart

. . . and it has a lot to do with a bunch of old people complaining that the game isn't what it used to be.

That complaint can be found all the way back to the earliest days of the sport. Complaining about the sport not being what it used to be is a baseball tradition!

[mm7607]

I would love to see a strike take out an entire season or two. I used to watch most of the games on TV but now I barely watch 1 inning a week. When Stripling and Poncedeleon got pulled with a no-hitter in their MLB debuts I think that did it for me. Only once in HISTORY has this happened and they pull two guys with a chance. So a looooong strike would be great.

[drksd4848]

Originally Posted by mm7607

I would love to see a strike take out an entire season or two. I used to watch most of the games on TV but now I barely watch 1 inning a week. When Stripling and Poncedeleon got pulled with a no-hitter in their MLB debuts I think that did it for me. Only once in HISTORY has this happened and they pull two guys with a chance. So a looooong strike would be great.

Step 1. Lock the players out.

Step 2. Break the Players Union

Step 3. The fans must make the owners and MLB suffer, and consequently the networks (thanks FOX and ESPN for a portion of baseball's unwatchable-ness)

Then they might finally pull their heads out of there rear-ends. It has gotten to the point were there needs some major arm twisting for baseball to right itself.

[TheMaus2]

[drksd4848]

Originally Posted by TheMaus2

[RchW]

Originally Posted by mm7607

I would love to see a strike take out an entire season or two. I used to watch most of the games on TV but now I barely watch 1 inning a week. When Stripling and Poncedeleon got pulled with a no-hitter in their MLB debuts I think that did it for me. Only once in HISTORY has this happened and they pull two guys with a chance. So a looooong strike would be great.

What goal would the players have in mind to strike about?

[RchW]

Originally Posted by drksd4848

Step 1. Lock the players out.

Step 2. Break the Players Union

Step 3. The fans must make the owners and MLB suffer, and consequently the networks (thanks FOX and ESPN for a portion of baseball's unwatchable-ness)

Then they might finally pull their heads out of there rear-ends. It has gotten to the point were there needs some major arm twisting for baseball to right itself.

Why would the owners lock out MLB players when they have made significant progress in reducing salary inflation without being done for collusion as they were in 1990? Lockouts only work when the ownership can show a financial case for it as the NHL and NBA did. Despite some attendance issues MLB owners have successfully instituted a salary cap, limited draft bonuses, made tanking/lowering payroll acceptable and gutted minor league salaries all to the benefit of the bottom line. They'd love the players to strike. In today's environment it would be meat for the jealous.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by RchW

Why would the owners lock out MLB players when they have made significant progress in reducing salary inflation . . .

Incorrect. Player salaries on average are still increasing just fine. What salaries are not doing is growing at the same rate at which club revenue is growing. Two separate things.

Originally Posted by RchW

Despite some attendance issues MLB owners have successfully instituted a salary cap . . .

Incorrect. There is no salary cap regime in MLB. There is a luxury tax on the clubs with the highest payrolls. Some argue the luxury tax is functioning as a de facto soft salary cap. That may be the case. Or it might be other factors at work, either alone or in combination.

Originally Posted by RchW

. . . limited draft bonuses . . .

This isn't new. The reason the amateur draft was created in the first place was to constrain signing bonuses for new players. It achieved this goal very effectively for about twenty-five years.

Originally Posted by RchW

. . . and gutted minor league salaries all to the benefit of the bottom line.

Minor league salaries have always been low ever since the minors traded away their independence for better financial support from the majors. Since 1981, however, minor league players with at least one day of major league service have had a minimum salary that was a percentage of the major league minimum (currently it is at about one-sixth the major league minimum). Since 2007, minor league players signing their first ML contract have had a minimum salary of half of the minimum specified for those with one day of major league service.

[Mancandy]

I agree with the poster who said this whole thread is sad. I really hope I'm not this way when I get older, though I realize many people my age will likely be...that's how society has always been, it's not just exclusive to baseball. I'm thankful for all of the people who understand analytics and have the patience to deal with those who don't, so I'm not going to respond to any of that, but there were a couple things that I need to address.

Originally Posted by Orcin

There's a lot of discussion about parks, which overlooks the real reason for increasing strikeouts. The strikeout rate has increased because batters are more interested in exit velocity and launch angle than contact. This is the same reason why they can't beat a simple shift.

They are beating a simple shift, they're just not doing it the way you want them to. Hitting the ball with a higher launch angle increases the chance of the ball going over the infielders' heads, and if the ball goes over their head, it doesn't really matter how they're shifted.


Anytime you wonder to yourself why players or managers do or don't do something a certain way, it's safe to assume it's because they have a better understanding of what does and doesn't work than we do.

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

I've read that comment three times now and can't for the life of me find out who it was he insulted. Or are you saying that "Hey you don't watch baseball games" is an insult? Really? Do you know how many people in this world DON'T WATCH BASEBALL games? Many, many, many more than do. I would think even paid people in the profession don't watch a lot of games. Scouts i would guess have to, but as long as you can follow the box scores and stats you can stay pretty well informed. I'd bet in fact that there lots of MLB "professionals" who don't even watch games, or perhaps at least a very few.

You read the comment three times, but did you read the other posts in this exchange? tklern321 said that ThePretender insulted them by saying their suspicion was ignorant. That's why ThePretender responded the way they did, they were pointing out that claiming people don't watch baseball is much closer to being an insult than calling a suspicion ignorant. It's interesting that you jumped on ThePretender for calling a borderline insult an insult, but did not response to tklern321's ridiculous claim that a completely non-insult was an insult.

Originally Posted by drksd4848

Lock 'em out. LOCK THEM OUT. Seriously.

As soon as one of those thumb-sucking, bed-wetting, cry-baby, un-self aware baseball players even mentions a strike, there should be a pad-lock the size of Gibraltar on the front gate, with this note:

Hey, baseball player! You think the current CBA is unfair? Good. Go find some other sport to play. How about football? Maybe they can play your walkup music while they drag you off on a stretcher after you get decapitated at the 50-yard-line.

And finally, I just can't resist this one...without addressing the silly notion that baseball players would have to go play a different sport rather than just go play in a different baseball league(and, spoiler alert, they'd fare a lot better than the owners would if they brought in replacement players), I really hope I'm not the only one who sees the irony of thumb-sucking, bed-wetting fans being crybabies about how un-self aware baseball players are.

[knightdreamer2k]

[





(They are beating a simple shift, they're just not doing it the way you want them to. Hitting the ball with a higher launch angle increases the chance of the ball going over the infielders' heads, and if the ball goes over their head, it doesn't really matter how they're shifted.


Anytime you wonder to yourself why players or managers do or don't do something a certain way, it's safe to assume it's because they have a better understanding of what does and doesn't work than we do.)


I agree with the above. I hear many people complain about the way the game is currently but then say they don't want the shift to go away. I hear former players that never faced the shift regularly and non players who talk like beating the shift is the easiest thing to do.

Having the shift is going to lead to lower averages and more strikeouts that is the by product of having the shift. I personally don't care either way but I think current players have a better idea how to deal with the shift.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Mancandy

Hitting the ball with a higher launch angle increases the chance of the ball going over the infielders' heads, and if the ball goes over their head, it doesn't really matter how they're shifted.

However, you actually have to HIT the ball in order for this theory to work.