Two-way players/Shohei Otani

geisterhome · 03-30-2018, 03:32 AM

What's your opinion on how it is implemented in the game?

As it seems to me after some testing is that the fatigue ("rest status") of the hitting/fielding is completely separated from the fatigue due to pitching(?)

So basically he is two separated players, one pitcher and one hitter, he can be exhausted at either one position but at 100% rest at the other.
But maybe you guys have seen some different results?

That way he can pretty much hit everyday and pitch as much as a regular starter would.

I really have no evidence on that but I at least feel like if e.g. he is really exhausted as a pitcher, day one after a start, his rest status as hitter shouldn't be at 100. Same the other way.

What you guys think?

texasmame · 03-30-2018, 09:13 AM

I've experienced this trouble with Ruth in my league. IIRC, in prior versions, it was set up as you explained; I would set him to STARTING PITCHER for his start, he'd start and fatigue as he should for a pitcher then I'd switch him back to an outfielder after the game (I play each game out in my league) and his fatigue would be reset.

Now, it seems to carry over making him tired no matter how he's set after pitching. Prefer it the "old" way.

Matt Arnold · 03-30-2018, 09:44 AM

While players have a separate rest status as a hitter and a pitcher, they will play together. The goal was to set it up how we has somewhat been told how Ohtani was going to be used: tired after pitching, and rest him before his start.

So you should notice that if he bats and/or plays the field on the day before his starts, he may not be 100% pitching on his starts (although if there's been off-days or he got other days off, then he might still be fine sometimes). And he will most likely not be 100% hitting on the day after he starts. And by default, we will try to sit him out the day before he starts so that he can be 100% for his starts.

I think we'll continue to watch how he's used going forward, and will continue to take suggestions on how other plays should be used too if they become two-way players, but I think we have a decent balance between getting them playing time, but not being too generous or too restrictive with fatigue.

geisterhome · 03-31-2018, 03:56 PM

See here, his batting fatigue is actually at 100 percent the day after a start, shouldn't it be down a bit? Not as bad the pitching rest status but somewhere in the middle.

Aceshigh24 · 04-14-2018, 02:56 AM

Is there a way to filter players to find out who can be a two-way player? Or is it just who you come across is the luck of the draw?

Aaron's Aron · 04-15-2018, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aceshigh24

Is there a way to filter players to find out who can be a two-way player? Or is it just who you come across is the luck of the draw?

Set the search to Pitchers and have it show Batting Potential. Or set it to Hitters and have it show Pitching Potential. If they are good at the other, they could potentially be a two-way player. There is not search option for specifically two-way players, though.

Curve Ball Dave · 04-15-2018, 12:46 PM

Pat Malone pitched for the Cubs' pennant winning teams in the late 20s/early 30s and finished his career with the Yankees. He was an excellent pitcher in his day.

I imported him into my league as a rookie. Technically he's not a two way player, but in his first season (my most recently concluded) he hit .338 and slugged .437 in 71 at bats. So if nothing else he certainly helped himself with the bat.

Shoeless' Socks · 04-15-2018, 12:50 PM

IMO, there are entirely too many two way players in the draft, etc. I mean, this feature, etc was implemented after ONE guy in MLB was planning on doing this. Every HS pitcher hits. It doesn't mean that these guys are going to do this in the minors and for sure not the majors.

It has created more issues than it was worth, IMO. Just my opinion.

The Game · 05-15-2018, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

While players have a separate rest status as a hitter and a pitcher, they will play together. The goal was to set it up how we has somewhat been told how Ohtani was going to be used: tired after pitching, and rest him before his start.

So you should notice that if he bats and/or plays the field on the day before his starts, he may not be 100% pitching on his starts (although if there's been off-days or he got other days off, then he might still be fine sometimes). And he will most likely not be 100% hitting on the day after he starts. And by default, we will try to sit him out the day before he starts so that he can be 100% for his starts.

I think we'll continue to watch how he's used going forward, and will continue to take suggestions on how other plays should be used too if they become two-way players, but I think we have a decent balance between getting them playing time, but not being too generous or too restrictive with fatigue.

Is there a setting or something that I am not seeing for 2 way players? i didnt see it in my 1st league created on 19 before i reinstalled and i dont see it on my EBL vs MLB converted from 18. i have the DH in both leagues if that matters.

Qeltar · 05-16-2018, 08:22 AM

It's bottom right under "Set Game Strategy."

dannibalcorpse · 05-16-2018, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoeless' Socks

IMO, there are entirely too many two way players in the draft, etc. I mean, this feature, etc was implemented after ONE guy in MLB was planning on doing this. Every HS pitcher hits. It doesn't mean that these guys are going to do this in the minors and for sure not the majors.

It has created more issues than it was worth, IMO. Just my opinion.

Tons of players are two-way players in HS though - Mark McGwire, Buster Posey, Nick Markakis, Dave Winfield, and Jack Clark are just a few examples of players who were drafted as pitchers. It's up to you to look at their potentials in both batting & pitching to figure out where they're gonna go in your organization.

The Game · 05-22-2018, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

It's bottom right under "Set Game Strategy."

So that only applies per game? can you screenshot it F12

Mets52 · 05-22-2018, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoeless' Socks

IMO, there are entirely too many two way players in the draft, etc. I mean, this feature, etc was implemented after ONE guy in MLB was planning on doing this. Every HS pitcher hits. It doesn't mean that these guys are going to do this in the minors and for sure not the majors.

It has created more issues than it was worth, IMO. Just my opinion.

I disagree only because if you've played long enough through you'll find the 2 way players hardly ever pan out once they have reached AAA/MLB level. They become good/great at one and usually mediocre at the other. Rarely do you get an Ohtani.

As far as finding them in the draft, setting it to HS/College stats and looking for someone with good hitting/pitching numbers is what I do. If you sort by HR's and one of the top guys also has some pitching stats, you might wanna look into him.

Rosco Peabody · 05-23-2018, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mets52

I disagree only because if you've played long enough through you'll find the 2 way players hardly ever pan out once they have reached AAA/MLB level. They become good/great at one and usually mediocre at the other. Rarely do you get an Ohtani.

As far as finding them in the draft, setting it to HS/College stats and looking for someone with good hitting/pitching numbers is what I do. If you sort by HR's and one of the top guys also has some pitching stats, you might wanna look into him.

Agree with you. In my fictional league, there are two of them that are even decent at both. One is an elite pitcher who has decent contact numbers (like a near .300 hitter but no power) and a centerfield phenom who can pitch (as a starter, he's about a #4 or #5 in a rotation).

Does this happen all the time in the major leagues? No. But how much of it is talent level and how much of it is coaching traditionalists who just won't allow it?

I remember years ago the Red Sox had Casey Kelly in their minor league system who was a Shortstop prospect and a pitching prospect and everyone said he HAD to choose one so he chose pitching. I thought it was dumb though because they made him stop playing the field.

I bet now that Ohtani is here, it's going to become more of a trend. Once one person does it, other people will follow suit. Not everyone will be able to do it, but you'll see it here and there

Aceshigh24 · 05-23-2018, 01:02 PM

This guy i selected first overall. Looks to be a way better hitter but the idea of watching him grow in either is pretty cool.

Qeltar · 05-23-2018, 01:14 PM

There have always been pitchers who can hit and hitters who can pitch. I think Rosco is right, it is mostly to do with coaches and management thinking (perhaps correctly) that it is better to have an excellent hitter or an excellent pitcher than one who is merely good at both.

I think another factor is that good pitchers are so important that if you show any potential to be a good pitcher they really want you to focus on that unless your hitting is truly exceptional and your pitching is marginal.

Ohtani is special because he is excellent at both. That is extremely rare.

I too usually view the two-way players not as future Ohtanis, but as guys who have twice the possibility of becoming useful contributors. I now have 10 to maybe 20 of these in my system. They require MUCH more work to develop than regular players.

RL baseball managers know much more than I do about these things, so I won't discount their judgment on not developing two-ways. But I will say that having a two-way player in OOTP is extremely useful. Until he started to not really be worth his cost, I used Lorenzen quite a bit. Effectively having an extra arm or an extra pinch hitter is very handy. I could also do things like warming him up when I knew the pitcher slot was up, letting him hit and then pitch, or vice-versa, saving use of a player.

I even had one guy my first year who was mostly a power hitter but could pitch on occasion. He threw mop-up for me and could at least keep the game closer than a position player getting smacked around.

All that said, someone who excels at one thing is still usually better than someone who is merely decent at two, a lesson I learned the hard way in my first amateur draft.

Here's my personal "Ohtani Junior" freshly promoted from the IC. I am sure he won't become nearly as good as this, but it's fun to dream.

PS The Game, right-click any player and select "Set Game Strategy" and you'll see "Use as a two-way player" bottom right.

Dyzalot · 05-23-2018, 06:14 PM

I was able to trade for this guy who has been a very effective pitcher out of the bullpen while also being a reasonable corner outfielder/DH off the bench.

PSUColonel · 06-05-2018, 11:11 PM

I tried to eliminate two way players by unchecking the function "allow two way players" but it doesn't seem to work. Am I missing something?

The Game · 06-06-2018, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I tried to eliminate two players by unchecking the function "allow two way players" but it doesn't seem to work. Am I missing something?

I noticed on some players profiles that they have a set position to tab separate from the actions menu. I had to change a SP from 1B to SP

Here is another example. i do have 2 way checked.

Bunktown Ballers · 06-07-2018, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoeless' socks

imo, there are entirely too many two way players in the draft, etc. I mean, this feature, etc was implemented after one guy in mlb was planning on doing this. Every hs pitcher hits. It doesn't mean that these guys are going to do this in the minors and for sure not the majors.

It has created more issues than it was worth, imo. Just my opinion.

ditto

03-30-2018, 03:32 AM	#1
geisterhome Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 286	Two-way players/Shohei Otani What's your opinion on how it is implemented in the game? As it seems to me after some testing is that the fatigue ("rest status") of the hitting/fielding is completely separated from the fatigue due to pitching(?) So basically he is two separated players, one pitcher and one hitter, he can be exhausted at either one position but at 100% rest at the other. But maybe you guys have seen some different results? That way he can pretty much hit everyday and pitch as much as a regular starter would. I really have no evidence on that but I at least feel like if e.g. he is really exhausted as a pitcher, day one after a start, his rest status as hitter shouldn't be at 100. Same the other way. What you guys think?

03-30-2018, 09:13 AM	#2
texasmame All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Planet Texas Posts: 1,709	I've experienced this trouble with Ruth in my league. IIRC, in prior versions, it was set up as you explained; I would set him to STARTING PITCHER for his start, he'd start and fatigue as he should for a pitcher then I'd switch him back to an outfielder after the game (I play each game out in my league) and his fatigue would be reset. Now, it seems to carry over making him tired no matter how he's set after pitching. Prefer it the "old" way. __________________ Managing and rebuilding the 98-loss TOKYO THUNDER.

04-15-2018, 12:46 PM	#7
Curve Ball Dave Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,391	Pat Malone pitched for the Cubs' pennant winning teams in the late 20s/early 30s and finished his career with the Yankees. He was an excellent pitcher in his day. I imported him into my league as a rookie. Technically he's not a two way player, but in his first season (my most recently concluded) he hit .338 and slugged .437 in 71 at bats. So if nothing else he certainly helped himself with the bat. __________________ "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing"-Warren Spahn.

05-23-2018, 01:02 PM	#15
Aceshigh24 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 645	This guy i selected first overall. Looks to be a way better hitter but the idea of watching him grow in either is pretty cool. Attached Images

05-23-2018, 01:14 PM	#16
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	There have always been pitchers who can hit and hitters who can pitch. I think Rosco is right, it is mostly to do with coaches and management thinking (perhaps correctly) that it is better to have an excellent hitter or an excellent pitcher than one who is merely good at both. I think another factor is that good pitchers are so important that if you show any potential to be a good pitcher they really want you to focus on that unless your hitting is truly exceptional and your pitching is marginal. Ohtani is special because he is excellent at both. That is extremely rare. I too usually view the two-way players not as future Ohtanis, but as guys who have twice the possibility of becoming useful contributors. I now have 10 to maybe 20 of these in my system. They require MUCH more work to develop than regular players. RL baseball managers know much more than I do about these things, so I won't discount their judgment on not developing two-ways. But I will say that having a two-way player in OOTP is extremely useful. Until he started to not really be worth his cost, I used Lorenzen quite a bit. Effectively having an extra arm or an extra pinch hitter is very handy. I could also do things like warming him up when I knew the pitcher slot was up, letting him hit and then pitch, or vice-versa, saving use of a player. I even had one guy my first year who was mostly a power hitter but could pitch on occasion. He threw mop-up for me and could at least keep the game closer than a position player getting smacked around. All that said, someone who excels at one thing is still usually better than someone who is merely decent at two, a lesson I learned the hard way in my first amateur draft. Here's my personal "Ohtani Junior" freshly promoted from the IC. I am sure he won't become nearly as good as this, but it's fun to dream. PS The Game, right-click any player and select "Set Game Strategy" and you'll see "Use as a two-way player" bottom right. Last edited by Qeltar; 05-23-2018 at 01:23 PM.

03-30-2018, 09:44 AM	#3
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 16,218	While players have a separate rest status as a hitter and a pitcher, they will play together. The goal was to set it up how we has somewhat been told how Ohtani was going to be used: tired after pitching, and rest him before his start. So you should notice that if he bats and/or plays the field on the day before his starts, he may not be 100% pitching on his starts (although if there's been off-days or he got other days off, then he might still be fine sometimes). And he will most likely not be 100% hitting on the day after he starts. And by default, we will try to sit him out the day before he starts so that he can be 100% for his starts. I think we'll continue to watch how he's used going forward, and will continue to take suggestions on how other plays should be used too if they become two-way players, but I think we have a decent balance between getting them playing time, but not being too generous or too restrictive with fatigue.

03-31-2018, 03:56 PM	#4
geisterhome Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 286	See here, his batting fatigue is actually at 100 percent the day after a start, shouldn't it be down a bit? Not as bad the pitching rest status but somewhere in the middle. Attached Images

04-14-2018, 02:56 AM	#5
Aceshigh24 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brea, CA Posts: 645	Is there a way to filter players to find out who can be a two-way player? Or is it just who you come across is the luck of the draw?

04-15-2018, 12:50 PM	#8
Shoeless' Socks Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 164	IMO, there are entirely too many two way players in the draft, etc. I mean, this feature, etc was implemented after ONE guy in MLB was planning on doing this. Every HS pitcher hits. It doesn't mean that these guys are going to do this in the minors and for sure not the majors. It has created more issues than it was worth, IMO. Just my opinion.

05-16-2018, 08:22 AM	#10
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	It's bottom right under "Set Game Strategy."

05-23-2018, 06:14 PM	#17
Dyzalot All Star Starter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,740	I was able to trade for this guy who has been a very effective pitcher out of the bullpen while also being a reasonable corner outfielder/DH off the bench. Attached Images

06-05-2018, 11:11 PM	#18
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,136	I tried to eliminate two way players by unchecking the function "allow two way players" but it doesn't seem to work. Am I missing something? Last edited by PSUColonel; 06-06-2018 at 12:25 AM.