developing a starting pitcher- problems

waltwa · 03-11-2018, 11:53 AM

I got caught by surprise. in my online leagues I have been informed by various commissioners that they are adding pitches to pitchers to make them starters.

what I found however is that those pitches being added did not always result in what I thought would be automatic- i.e a starter

unless a pitcher is listed only as - starter there is no assurance they will develop into sp's.

titles such as

borderline starter
starter

bullpen/emergency starter
starter

strictly bullpen
starter

do not mean that the pitcher will wind up as a starter. pitches are added but in many cases those pitches fail to reach potential.

my question is this

is there a way as a pitcher goes thru the developmental stages (minors) to help them develop at least 3 pitches to full potential. I am finding that it most cases altho the final stage is listed as starter these pitchers rarely reach the level of sp with 3 fully developed pitches

I do check stamina if I draft one of these guys but even hi stamina does not result in a true sp

Marsupilami · 03-11-2018, 02:55 PM

what do you mean they are adding pitches to pitchers to make them starters???

do you mean the commish manually edits a player to add pitches?

RchW · 03-11-2018, 03:22 PM

Sounds like a league to avoid.

Marsupilami · 03-11-2018, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Sounds like a league to avoid.

if true certainly. i`m still kinda in disbelief

(p.s:and if true OP please shoot me a PM with the league name so i can avoid it)

NoOne · 03-11-2018, 08:20 PM

i second the opinion to avoid that league if people are editing players.. holy %$#@ that's unbridled craziness guaranteed.

not enough sp? add more rounds to draft or somethign.. if oyu hve 100% accuracy turn that off, because no one will get a decent SP after the first couple rounds if they are too easily identified at that early of an age.

expect ratings to change drastically after drafting and a couple years in your MiL system for nearly all draftees (excluding 100% accuracy setting). a pitch may even magically show to be much better than previously scouting as an MiL-rookie or from the draft info. you could very well have alot more SP than you realize due to scouting inaccuracy or not force starting a few guys that for some reaosn the ai puts in the pen in the MiL.

don't draft based on stamina and ever expect it to correlate to an SP without the other more important requirements.. like having 3 or more pitches. (see below about learning new pitches randomly)

the younger they are and # of pro svc years has strong influence on accuracy. college draftee is more likely to be accurate than an 18yo. but 18 yo will have a higher % cahnce of having higher potential ratings etc so that the risk can be worth it based on context.

about current use and future projections:

if they don't have "potential" for 3 different pitches it is very unlikely they ever will.. and defintieyl nothign you can control in this regard in any pertinent way.. TCR has to occur. "random" being part of that acronym and how it works. maybe good coaches offer a sliver of a percentage increase? nothing you can see with an eyeball, though. (specifically talking of a new pitch added, and not general developement)

a 1/100 current ability pitch on profile pitch isn't likely to develop the older they get, either... but WAY more likely than praying for a TCR event to take place. by 24ish i typically give up on them (3rd pitch 1/100 or very low and very little change over long period of time.. if it's improving each month, even at 24, keep riding it until it stops improving before finalizingn decision on that player) and make them RP, but ~26-28 is probably the zero-hope point. i choose to cut it off when it's just improbable to my liking, not 0% chance.

i do often have these types of 2/3 pitch guys in my MLB pen. if anythign i think it's better than a AAA SP as far as hoping for that third pitch to kick in and reach potential. if otherwise developed, it avoids negative impact of being too good for AAA.. plus mlb development is not tied to playing time, so it's definiteyl not using pitch thrown info from games since playing time is irrelevant.

i keep these guys forced as SP, just in case that helps develop 3rd+ pitches that they may have that aren't developing - i'd assume they'd throw it more at the least based on how rp vs sp use their third+ pitch listed. it doesn't affect their stats until AAA and even a noticeable bit in AA. a 2-pitch starter (current abilty ratings, not potential) starts to have problems with performance as they advance through your MiL... but not so much at rookie/SA/A-ball.

as far as future use prediction-- thats 100% about hte potential ratings at least while they are developing... e.g. even if they have a 1/100 current ability 3rd pitch and some decent potential value for that pitch, they are listed as future starter or borderline etc (quality of the guy will determing that portion).

maybe by a certain age it switches to bullpen only even in this situation.. that kind of minutiae you'll have to look for to confirm.

borderline just means the third pitch is weak or some combination of tehir 3 pitches is below some threshold.. you could figure it out by looking at eough players and comparing the differences. it will be 100% consistent with 100% accuracy scouting.

so, don't worry about the title so much...

do they have three or more pitches? is the potential for that third pitch at least approaching average and the other pitches are decent quality too? do they have enough stamina? is the third pitch developing or remaining extremely low on scale even 3-4 years later? if it's not budging over time, it becomes more and more likely to be an RP.

(i prefer guys with 1/2 scale stamina or higher, but you can get away with 1/4 scale in some contexts, jsut don't ever expect 250IP in 32-34GS.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwa

I got caught by surprise. in my online leagues I have been informed by various commissioners that they are adding pitches to pitchers to make them starters.

what I found however is that those pitches being added did not always result in what I thought would be automatic- i.e a starter

unless a pitcher is listed only as - starter there is no assurance they will develop into sp's.

titles such as

borderline starter
starter

bullpen/emergency starter
starter

strictly bullpen
starter

do not mean that the pitcher will wind up as a starter. pitches are added but in many cases those pitches fail to reach potential.

my question is this

is there a way as a pitcher goes thru the developmental stages (minors) to help them develop at least 3 pitches to full potential. I am finding that it most cases altho the final stage is listed as starter these pitchers rarely reach the level of sp with 3 fully developed pitches

I do check stamina if I draft one of these guys but even hi stamina does not result in a true sp

waltwa · 03-11-2018, 11:51 PM

I think the post was misinterpreted. I am not even sure about adding pitches and it really doesn't matter.

the question is - is there a way to improve a pitchers ability to throw the full potential of 3 or more pitches if he is ultimately listed as a starter.

for instance I limit all minor leaguers to 90 pitches per game. what if I increased that to 110 pitches- would that help

that's what I am looking to find out.

MBarrett · 03-12-2018, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwa

I think the post was misinterpreted. I am not even sure about adding pitches and it really doesn't matter.

the question is - is there a way to improve a pitchers ability to throw the full potential of 3 or more pitches if he is ultimately listed as a starter.

for instance I limit all minor leaguers to 90 pitches per game. what if I increased that to 110 pitches- would that help

that's what I am looking to find out.

You've posted some strange things about your online leagues lately. I'd question your participation in those leagues if I were you. There are dozens of well-run leagues with good reputations out there looking for GMs.

Theoretically the more he pitches, the better chance he has to develop. However I would suspect that as long as he's starting it shouldn't matter whether it's a 90 or 110 pitch max, since he'll probably go a bit over 90 anyways.

waltwa · 03-12-2018, 12:26 PM

this post unfortunately was misinterpreted. it was simply asking for advice on developing a pitcher. the addition of pitches was unclear and not a problem in any way.

NoOne · 03-12-2018, 04:19 PM

"is there a way as a pitcher goes thru the developmental stages (minors) to help them develop at least 3 pitches to full potential. I am finding that it most cases altho the final stage is listed as starter these pitchers rarely reach the level of sp with 3 fully developed pitches"

all the knowledge needed is above to answer this question. i'll make a 2nd attempt to communicate it in a slightly different way.

in the minors only, the manual says playing time has a small effect on development. This is NOT true in the MLB.. so any developement based on performance or usage likely is not important. (laws of prbability dictate - shouldn't even be the case in MiL tbh. thankfully it's a "small" effect or however the manual describes it- you can read it for the exact verbage)

overworking them is a problem too. so, you can't just put a 125-150ptch count and boost development wihtout serious repecrussions that will not outweight a small positive effect that you gain.

forcing position to SP should be enough in the minors. they do a good job of not overworking them.. also, don't use "strict rotation" in the MiL or anywhere else as default setting for that matter. anytime the rotation changes due to manager or update etc, a tired pitcher may get a GS due to STRICT rotation. np when you control rotation you can avoid this by hand, of course, the ai not so much.

"occasionally start highest rested" is a good compromise - the top 2 may get an extra start or two but nothing crazy and only due to a well-timed day off and fully recovered from last start -- i.e. regular rotation, so not overworking them at all. the pitchers 'lower' in rotation will not do this unless "always start highest rested" is used. occasional will keep it to your higher rated pitchers.

there's nothing you can directly do to make that "3rd" pitch or any pitch develop. hire good coaches, spend on development.. after that's it's fairly random relative to those factors influence.

i covered how pitches can "add" because it is pertinent to your question of developing SP.

don't focus on the title of "borderline starter" or "future starter"... focus on the questions i listed at end of previous post: these questions are "why" they are listed as they are. they are the exact metrics used for these labels. they answer your questions about the label given - borderline, starter, releiver etc.

my quoted part:
"
do they have three or more pitches? is the potential for that third pitch at least approaching average and the other pitches are decent quality too? do they have enough stamina? is the third pitch developing or remaining extremely low on scale even 3-4 years later? if it's not budging over time, it becomes more and more likely to be an RP.
"

replace "is the third pitch" with "are all the pitches"

also, add "and can never be an sp at that point" to the end of last sentence.

if "stats only" it merely delays learning these things. you need a suitable sample size proving the change in ratings that you cannot see. various stats relate to each rating and are easily used to accurately predict the unseen ratings of the player. ratings will tell you everythign you need to know about their current ability and the potential in future and whether they can be an SP or not.

figuring out if tehy have 3 suitable pitches with "Stats-Only" will not be clear until AAA or even MLB useage. if they underperform, but look good otherwise it is probably a 2-pitch guy with a crap third pitch who should be a reliever. consistently crappy in later innings is also a bad omen for this. *with ratings, just look at ratings.. KISS principle.

no, you can't "make" any pitcher an SP by doing anything specific. they must develope into one. if no potential in teh above requirements noted, it simply won't happen.. if they have potential there's a % chance they don't develope into one, even so.

forcing a 1 or 2-pitch guy as a starter will only cause poor results at upper level MiL and MLB levels. if they don't have "potential" for a third pitch, it cannot happen without TCR luck.

if tehy have potential for that third pitch, but it remains extremely low into their mid-to-late 20's, it will never* be an SP, either. (*tcr or outliers in luck etc, not somethign to bank on nor hope for)

03-11-2018, 11:53 AM	#1
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 906	developing a starting pitcher- problems I got caught by surprise. in my online leagues I have been informed by various commissioners that they are adding pitches to pitchers to make them starters. what I found however is that those pitches being added did not always result in what I thought would be automatic- i.e a starter unless a pitcher is listed only as - starter there is no assurance they will develop into sp's. titles such as borderline starter starter bullpen/emergency starter starter strictly bullpen starter do not mean that the pitcher will wind up as a starter. pitches are added but in many cases those pitches fail to reach potential. my question is this is there a way as a pitcher goes thru the developmental stages (minors) to help them develop at least 3 pitches to full potential. I am finding that it most cases altho the final stage is listed as starter these pitchers rarely reach the level of sp with 3 fully developed pitches I do check stamina if I draft one of these guys but even hi stamina does not result in a true sp

03-11-2018, 02:55 PM	#2
Marsupilami Major Leagues Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 328	what do you mean they are adding pitches to pitchers to make them starters??? do you mean the commish manually edits a player to add pitches? __________________ ABL 2020 - Brewers

03-11-2018, 03:22 PM	#3
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Sounds like a league to avoid. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

03-12-2018, 04:19 PM	#9
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	"is there a way as a pitcher goes thru the developmental stages (minors) to help them develop at least 3 pitches to full potential. I am finding that it most cases altho the final stage is listed as starter these pitchers rarely reach the level of sp with 3 fully developed pitches" all the knowledge needed is above to answer this question. i'll make a 2nd attempt to communicate it in a slightly different way. in the minors only, the manual says playing time has a small effect on development. This is NOT true in the MLB.. so any developement based on performance or usage likely is not important. (laws of prbability dictate - shouldn't even be the case in MiL tbh. thankfully it's a "small" effect or however the manual describes it- you can read it for the exact verbage) overworking them is a problem too. so, you can't just put a 125-150ptch count and boost development wihtout serious repecrussions that will not outweight a small positive effect that you gain. forcing position to SP should be enough in the minors. they do a good job of not overworking them.. also, don't use "strict rotation" in the MiL or anywhere else as default setting for that matter. anytime the rotation changes due to manager or update etc, a tired pitcher may get a GS due to STRICT rotation. np when you control rotation you can avoid this by hand, of course, the ai not so much. "occasionally start highest rested" is a good compromise - the top 2 may get an extra start or two but nothing crazy and only due to a well-timed day off and fully recovered from last start -- i.e. regular rotation, so not overworking them at all. the pitchers 'lower' in rotation will not do this unless "always start highest rested" is used. occasional will keep it to your higher rated pitchers. there's nothing you can directly do to make that "3rd" pitch or any pitch develop. hire good coaches, spend on development.. after that's it's fairly random relative to those factors influence. i covered how pitches can "add" because it is pertinent to your question of developing SP. don't focus on the title of "borderline starter" or "future starter"... focus on the questions i listed at end of previous post: these questions are "why" they are listed as they are. they are the exact metrics used for these labels. they answer your questions about the label given - borderline, starter, releiver etc. my quoted part: " do they have three or more pitches? is the potential for that third pitch at least approaching average and the other pitches are decent quality too? do they have enough stamina? is the third pitch developing or remaining extremely low on scale even 3-4 years later? if it's not budging over time, it becomes more and more likely to be an RP. " replace "is the third pitch" with "are all the pitches" also, add "and can never be an sp at that point" to the end of last sentence. if "stats only" it merely delays learning these things. you need a suitable sample size proving the change in ratings that you cannot see. various stats relate to each rating and are easily used to accurately predict the unseen ratings of the player. ratings will tell you everythign you need to know about their current ability and the potential in future and whether they can be an SP or not. figuring out if tehy have 3 suitable pitches with "Stats-Only" will not be clear until AAA or even MLB useage. if they underperform, but look good otherwise it is probably a 2-pitch guy with a crap third pitch who should be a reliever. consistently crappy in later innings is also a bad omen for this. with ratings, just look at ratings.. KISS principle. no, you can't "make" any pitcher an SP by doing anything specific. they must develope into one. if no potential in teh above requirements noted, it simply won't happen.. if they have potential there's a % chance they don't develope into one, even so. forcing a 1 or 2-pitch guy as a starter will only cause poor results at upper level MiL and MLB levels. if they don't have "potential" for a third pitch, it cannot happen without TCR luck. if tehy have potential for that third pitch, but it remains extremely low into their mid-to-late 20's, it will never be an SP, either. (tcr or outliers in luck etc, not somethign to bank on nor hope for) Last edited by NoOne; 03-12-2018 at 04:25 PM.*

03-11-2018, 11:51 PM	#6
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 906	I think the post was misinterpreted. I am not even sure about adding pitches and it really doesn't matter. the question is - is there a way to improve a pitchers ability to throw the full potential of 3 or more pitches if he is ultimately listed as a starter. for instance I limit all minor leaguers to 90 pitches per game. what if I increased that to 110 pitches- would that help that's what I am looking to find out.

03-12-2018, 12:26 PM	#8
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 906	this post unfortunately was misinterpreted. it was simply asking for advice on developing a pitcher. the addition of pitches was unclear and not a problem in any way.