Should I fire my manager before a rebuild?

pgjocki · 03-02-2018, 01:10 AM

First let me set the scenario:

I am going to take over as GM of the Orioles and want to trade away everybody except for Manny Machado and enter into a 2 to 3 year massive rebuild.

Personally I have respect for Buck Showalter but don't think he figures into my long term plans and I don't want to force him at 61 to deal with a team that hopefully wins between 30-45 games while I rebuild the farm system and get high draft picks.

So, with that, should I just fire him and hire the cheapest, youngest guy I can to take the position until 2020 or so when I am ready to compete and then hire a good manager?

I'm interested in your opinions on the ethics and unwritten rules of the game.

Brad K · 03-02-2018, 11:43 AM

The question is should you pay for a real manager when you don't have a real team?

Remember the Rays hired Kevin Cash.

mitchkenn · 03-02-2018, 01:29 PM

if you think Buck is worthwhile, but don't want to put him through the torture of managing a rebuild team, give him a front office job or the like. i'd hire a manager that i thought could handle the rebuild and beyond.

Orcin · 03-02-2018, 01:37 PM

I would replace him with a manager that handles young players well. Coaches too. You want your new core to develop.

Curve Ball Dave · 03-02-2018, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin

I would replace him with a manager that handles young players well. Coaches too. You want your new core to develop.

Yep.

You need a manager who is a fit for what you're doing. A guy who is good with veterans and not younger players (for instance) would be the wrong fit.

Brad K · 03-02-2018, 04:04 PM

The players of the future aren't going to be there the first two or three years. Hire cheap.

NoOne · 03-02-2018, 04:15 PM

you can't see how good they are, so it's 100% a crapshoot.

when it says "favors kids" [sic] it's doesn't mean he is highly rated for rookies. it only means that particular # > the # for handling vets (or whatever the minutiea is).

so a 20rookie > 1vet out of 200 would say the same as 200 > 1. good luck figuring out which is which.

I've never looked at showalter's ratings... i bet there 120-150ish where it counnts or better. he's got a good rep and wins where he coaches in RL on a consistent basis. he may be skewed off/def but almost all are. you can find an opposite skewed bench coach.

real life GM and managers - if you know they are decent keep them. at least you have an idea of their ability.

your payroll is tiny in a rebuild anyway... if ~500k-1M is going to be a back-breaker i guess let them go.

I'd rather retain what's nearly impossible to find than worry about 500k-1million savings. 24M or 36M development vs 23.5 or 35.5? no real difference... a crap coach and agood coach is probably a small difference too, but not compared to a large budget with a small deduction. Even if it's 10M vs 9.5, i'd bet that holds true. in a rebuild you are probably dumping more than baseline into developement. so a large number less 500k is no big deal.

scouting is a bit smaller and broken into 3 categories, it would have a more drastic effect there.

pgjocki · 03-02-2018, 04:51 PM

I am not worried about payroll or the overall cost of the manager - in fact I am more than willing to pay Buck to not be the manager so he can go manage another team.

This is more about doing the right thing and not dragging his reputation down by essentially forcing the team to lose for two or three years.

As far as the ratings I just opened the editor and here are Buck's numbers:

Handle Players: 186
Handle Veterans: 184
Handle Rookies: 188

He would be good, heck, maybe even great for a rebuild but at 61 I am not sure he has the longevity to manager into his mid to late 60's.

pgjocki · 03-02-2018, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

if you think Buck is worthwhile, but don't want to put him through the torture of managing a rebuild team, give him a front office job or the like. i'd hire a manager that i thought could handle the rebuild and beyond.

I hadn't thought of this option but this is a great path to pursue as I can make him the Assistant GM. How does the game handle this, i.e. can Buck refuse the job if he is already under contract?

I am going to start a new save and try it just to see; I'll report back my findings.

pgjocki · 03-02-2018, 05:03 PM

And here is your answer...

NoOne · 03-02-2018, 05:11 PM

i don't think reputation really means anything.

you can make a 1/200 coach and he can be Legendary... still junky coach... so a "unproven" 200/200 guy is still a great coach regardless of reputation.

rep is more like 100% stats ai evaluation. except it is FAR less correlated with ability than resulting stats of players. it seems to be solely based on w/l record, which has very littel to do with the coach beyond a few % points as determined by coach sliders vs. league.

if you just want him to retain it... cool beans, all for it on any personal level or preference.

if it's somethign you believe to be tangible in nature, that's probably not the case and doing it for a reason that doesn't exist. it will only affect his next contract from teh AI if you get rid of him and have virtually nothign to do with performance that the coach is responsible for.

03-02-2018, 01:10 AM	#1
pgjocki All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Maryland - just outside DC Posts: 1,675	Should I fire my manager before a rebuild? First let me set the scenario: I am going to take over as GM of the Orioles and want to trade away everybody except for Manny Machado and enter into a 2 to 3 year massive rebuild. Personally I have respect for Buck Showalter but don't think he figures into my long term plans and I don't want to force him at 61 to deal with a team that hopefully wins between 30-45 games while I rebuild the farm system and get high draft picks. So, with that, should I just fire him and hire the cheapest, youngest guy I can to take the position until 2020 or so when I am ready to compete and then hire a good manager? I'm interested in your opinions on the ethics and unwritten rules of the game. __________________ - - - World Series championships: 1926, 1931, 1934, 1942, 1944, 1946, 1964, 1967, 1982, 2006, 2011

03-02-2018, 01:29 PM	#3
mitchkenn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Oregon, not by design Posts: 2,872	if you think Buck is worthwhile, but don't want to put him through the torture of managing a rebuild team, give him a front office job or the like. i'd hire a manager that i thought could handle the rebuild and beyond. __________________ "This is my opening farewell " - Jackson Browne “They make a desolation and call it peace.” ― Agha Shahid Ali "Maybe she just has to sing, for the sake of the song - And who do I think that I am to decide that she's wrong." - Townes Van Zandt "I saw a young man leaning on his wooden crutch - He called out to me, 'Don't ask for so much' And a young woman leaning in her darkened door She cried out to me, 'Why not ask for more?' " - Leonard Cohen "Hello darkness, my old Friend ...." - Paul Simon Before Mays, before DiMaggio, there was Oscar Charleston. "All the lies about Babe Ruth are true." - Waite Hoyt Avatar is the late great Townes Van Zandt. rip.

03-02-2018, 04:15 PM	#7
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	you can't see how good they are, so it's 100% a crapshoot. when it says "favors kids" [sic] it's doesn't mean he is highly rated for rookies. it only means that particular # > the # for handling vets (or whatever the minutiea is). so a 20rookie > 1vet out of 200 would say the same as 200 > 1. good luck figuring out which is which. I've never looked at showalter's ratings... i bet there 120-150ish where it counnts or better. he's got a good rep and wins where he coaches in RL on a consistent basis. he may be skewed off/def but almost all are. you can find an opposite skewed bench coach. real life GM and managers - if you know they are decent keep them. at least you have an idea of their ability. your payroll is tiny in a rebuild anyway... if ~500k-1M is going to be a back-breaker i guess let them go. I'd rather retain what's nearly impossible to find than worry about 500k-1million savings. 24M or 36M development vs 23.5 or 35.5? no real difference... a crap coach and agood coach is probably a small difference too, but not compared to a large budget with a small deduction. Even if it's 10M vs 9.5, i'd bet that holds true. in a rebuild you are probably dumping more than baseline into developement. so a large number less 500k is no big deal. scouting is a bit smaller and broken into 3 categories, it would have a more drastic effect there. Last edited by NoOne; 03-02-2018 at 04:20 PM.

03-02-2018, 04:51 PM	#8
pgjocki All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Maryland - just outside DC Posts: 1,675	I am not worried about payroll or the overall cost of the manager - in fact I am more than willing to pay Buck to not be the manager so he can go manage another team. This is more about doing the right thing and not dragging his reputation down by essentially forcing the team to lose for two or three years. As far as the ratings I just opened the editor and here are Buck's numbers: Handle Players: 186 Handle Veterans: 184 Handle Rookies: 188 He would be good, heck, maybe even great for a rebuild but at 61 I am not sure he has the longevity to manager into his mid to late 60's. __________________ - - - World Series championships: 1926, 1931, 1934, 1942, 1944, 1946, 1964, 1967, 1982, 2006, 2011

03-02-2018, 05:03 PM	#10
pgjocki All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Maryland - just outside DC Posts: 1,675	And here is your answer... Attached Images __________________ - - - World Series championships: 1926, 1931, 1934, 1942, 1944, 1946, 1964, 1967, 1982, 2006, 2011

03-02-2018, 11:43 AM	#2
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	The question is should you pay for a real manager when you don't have a real team? Remember the Rays hired Kevin Cash.

03-02-2018, 01:37 PM	#4
Orcin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,884	I would replace him with a manager that handles young players well. Coaches too. You want your new core to develop.

03-02-2018, 04:04 PM	#6
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	The players of the future aren't going to be there the first two or three years. Hire cheap.

03-02-2018, 05:11 PM	#11
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	i don't think reputation really means anything. you can make a 1/200 coach and he can be Legendary... still junky coach... so a "unproven" 200/200 guy is still a great coach regardless of reputation. rep is more like 100% stats ai evaluation. except it is FAR less correlated with ability than resulting stats of players. it seems to be solely based on w/l record, which has very littel to do with the coach beyond a few % points as determined by coach sliders vs. league. if you just want him to retain it... cool beans, all for it on any personal level or preference. if it's somethign you believe to be tangible in nature, that's probably not the case and doing it for a reason that doesn't exist. it will only affect his next contract from teh AI if you get rid of him and have virtually nothign to do with performance that the coach is responsible for. Last edited by NoOne; 03-02-2018 at 05:15 PM.