Is Machado getting bigger deal as SS or 3B?

[pgjocki]

With Machado demanding and getting his was at playing SS this year do you think that helps or hurts him in getting the most money possible as a free agent?

Going into the season none other than Troy Tulowitzki leads the league with a salary of $20M as a SS with the closest guys coming in at $15M.

For the guys handling the hot corner we have a higher salary right now with the following:

Josh Donaldson - $23M
David Wright - $20M
Kyle Seager - $19M
Adrian Beltre - $18M
Nolan Arenado - $17.7M
Manny Machado - $16M

By these numbers it would seem the league pays more for a 3B than a SS but could Machado destroy the current market and command in the very high 20's or even low 30's for his next deal?

I am also curious if his performance last year of only putting up 3.5 WAR after two straight seasons of above 6.5 will also depress his salary any or since he is so young that owners will literally write him a blank check.

Thoughts?

[Matt Arnold]

He's still very highly thought of, so if he repeats last year, that will certainly cost him, although someone's still going to pay. Maybe he only gets 10/300 instead of 12/400, though.

As for the money, I wouldn't look at current pay of players to compare. There's a ton of great young talent, but they basically haven't hit FA yet, so next year is basically the first year of that in recent memory. SS for the longest time had Tulo as its only great player, and then hit the renaissance a couple years ago, but those guys are still too young.

So, basically, whether he gets paid more as a SS or a 3B will come down more to which team has an opening for him at either spot and is willing to pay. My guess is that his desire to play SS this year at least partly hinges on the fact that if he does well there this year, then that potentially doubles his market, since he can then sign to play either spot and he's not fighting directly with Donaldson as the top available 3B.

[Birdland24]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

He's still very highly thought of, so if he repeats last year, that will certainly cost him, although someone's still going to pay. Maybe he only gets 10/300 instead of 12/400, though.

As for the money, I wouldn't look at current pay of players to compare. There's a ton of great young talent, but they basically haven't hit FA yet, so next year is basically the first year of that in recent memory. SS for the longest time had Tulo as its only great player, and then hit the renaissance a couple years ago, but those guys are still too young.

So, basically, whether he gets paid more as a SS or a 3B will come down more to which team has an opening for him at either spot and is willing to pay. My guess is that his desire to play SS this year at least partly hinges on the fact that if he does well there this year, then that potentially doubles his market, since he can then sign to play either spot and he's not fighting directly with Donaldson as the top available 3B.

As an O’s fan the problem with Manny is hasn’t been traded yet. They seriously need to unload him and get every prospect they can in return. Manny is dead set on being a SS and has made it known around here in Baltimore.
Manny is gonna get paid regardless the thing is his attitude. When Manny struggles not only does his bat struggle but so does his attitude.
I’ve been watching him for 5 years and his attitude has worn thin on me. He’s an incredible talent with amazing baseball ability but he can be a diva.
If I were to bet I’d bet Manny won’t sign anywhere unless they promise him a spot at SS.


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[pgjocki]

Originally Posted by Birdland24

As an O’s fan the problem with Manny is hasn’t been traded yet. They seriously need to unload him and get every prospect they can in return. Manny is dead set on being a SS and has made it known around here in Baltimore.
Manny is gonna get paid regardless the thing is his attitude. When Manny struggles not only does his bat struggle but so does his attitude.
I’ve been watching him for 5 years and his attitude has worn thin on me. He’s an incredible talent with amazing baseball ability but he can be a diva.
If I were to bet I’d bet Manny won’t sign anywhere unless they promise him a spot at SS.

The problem facing the Orioles now is that his trade value has plummeted because if they were going to trade him they waited to long. His optimal trade value was last winter and it went down further by not trading him at last summers trade deadline.

I won't give up a bag full of nickels at this point because you know he is gearing up for Free Agency and unless you are one player short of winning the World Series it doesn't make sense to part ways with prospects for a short term rental if the Orioles are going to demand your very best prospects.

It's a tricky business parting ways with generational talents - if this guy gets his head straight as you say he could go down as one of the top 5 guys to every play for the Orioles. But alas, he won't be the next Cal Ripken Jr and by this time next year a new team will be overly excited about their team overpaying him.

[Birdland24]

Originally Posted by pgjocki

The problem facing the Orioles now is that his trade value has plummeted because if they were going to trade him they waited to long. His optimal trade value was last winter and it went down further by not trading him at last summers trade deadline.



I won't give up a bag full of nickels at this point because you know he is gearing up for Free Agency and unless you are one player short of winning the World Series it doesn't make sense to part ways with prospects for a short term rental if the Orioles are going to demand your very best prospects.



It's a tricky business parting ways with generational talents - if this guy gets his head straight as you say he could go down as one of the top 5 guys to every play for the Orioles. But alas, he won't be the next Cal Ripken Jr and by this time next year a new team will be overly excited about their team overpaying him.

I agree with you 100%!

The Orioles need to accept their place in the AL east at this point and move on. Talk around here is sign Lynn/Cobb and make a run at the wild card. I’m sorry but the goal is has to be the division and if things don’t go your way you SETTLE for the WC.
Schoop has value about as high as it can get and they should trade him, Manny, Trumbo (if they can), Davis (won’t happen horrible contract) and Jones.
Britton, O’Day and Brach can go too.

This team has been poorly ran for many, many years and now you’re coming to the end of a run where they had a chance to make some additions to put them as WS contenders. As much as I love the Orioles it’s like a 30 year marriage we been together so long they make me as angry as anyone but I cant walk away.


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[Calvert98]

Agreed with much of this. Unless they get some great prospects for Manny, I think they will just let him walk and go with Draft compensation. At least that is what I am hearing on the radio and articles, but it makes sense.

I should know this, being an OOTP guy, but does anyone know exactly what that will look like at this point (and if they have given him a "qualifying offer")? Have the new rules changed anything here?

[Birdland24]

Originally Posted by Calvert98

Agreed with much of this. Unless they get some great prospects for Manny, I think they will just let him walk and go with Draft compensation. At least that is what I am hearing on the radio and articles, but it makes sense.

I should know this, being an OOTP guy, but does anyone know exactly what that will look like at this point (and if they have given him a "qualifying offer")? Have the new rules changed anything here?

I think its a 2nd and 5th now instead of a first. I’m not 100% but I think that’s what I heard.


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[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Birdland24

I agree with you 100%!

The Orioles need to accept their place in the AL east at this point and move on. Talk around here is sign Lynn/Cobb and make a run at the wild card. I’m sorry but the goal is has to be the division and if things don’t go your way you SETTLE for the WC.
Schoop has value about as high as it can get and they should trade him, Manny, Trumbo (if they can), Davis (won’t happen horrible contract) and Jones.
Britton, O’Day and Brach can go too.

This team has been poorly ran for many, many years and now you’re coming to the end of a run where they had a chance to make some additions to put them as WS contenders. As much as I love the Orioles it’s like a 30 year marriage we been together so long they make me as angry as anyone but I cant walk away.


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It is impossible to run that team under current ownership. It's fine to suggest all those trades they should make (and they probably should), but how many of them will Angelos scuttle before they reach an agreeable conclusion?

[Birdland24]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

It is impossible to run that team under current ownership. It's fine to suggest all those trades they should make (and they probably should), but how many of them will Angelos scuttle before they reach an agreeable conclusion?

This is why I get excited every time he passes on OOTP (sick sense of humor)
He already stopped a trade with Britton last year at the deadline. He’s horrible as an owner. He’s the reason they gave Davis that horrible contract.


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[pgjocki]

Originally Posted by Calvert98

Agreed with much of this. Unless they get some great prospects for Manny, I think they will just let him walk and go with Draft compensation. At least that is what I am hearing on the radio and articles, but it makes sense.

I should know this, being an OOTP guy, but does anyone know exactly what that will look like at this point (and if they have given him a "qualifying offer")? Have the new rules changed anything here?

What radio station are you getting updates on? I am down in Prince George's County and the only AM talk radio that comes in is "Team 980" which is 7 fat guys who sit around talking about the Redskins 23 hours a day with 1 hour reserved for all other sports.

[pgjocki]

Originally Posted by Birdland24

This is why I get excited every time he passes on OOTP (sick sense of humor)
He already stopped a trade with Britton last year at the deadline. He’s horrible as an owner. He’s the reason they gave Davis that horrible contract.


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Exactly - which means that I will probably have to run in commissioner mode to override the owner because he equates having money with being smart...

Now, I am a Cardinals fan first but since I am living here on the East Coast and can't stand the Nationals I have picked up following the O's as a side crush.

[NoOne]

you get paid for offense... defense very little. a great bat at SS may have a bit of a premium, but not any more than a-rod or even roughly what p fielder got at 1b relative to his offensive ability sans injury(s).

even a second year of 3.5 may not hurt him too much in FA..but far more likely with his "1" home club (small sample reason).

he's got a track record by this point and still young by all standards. really, he's a few good games from a ~normal year. 1 more hit every 10-15 games and he's right back at the 2 previous seaosns. this is typical volatility... no one should be scared off even by a 2nd similar year becuse it's in the realm of ~normal for him.

normal equals average +/- some range.. not a specific value. 105-130ops+? 100-150? with an average ~125? just spitballing, not necesariyl for machado himself.

ther are more 3b getting paid large sums because there are more 3b putting up those kinds of offensive numbers compared to a SS which is much more difficult to "be" from an ability standpoint... fewer people can do it, therefore less than average offense is likely on a league-wide basis. that doesn't mean a SS won't get paid with good offense... it's just not as probable to occur/exist.

if anythign offense + C/SS/CF will get a slight bump due to position, but not much.. the ceiling is the ceiling mostly for offensive reasons.

he's been the same guy for ~4 years now.. and he's 25? nothing wil hcange unless he quits working/preparing the same.

[Calvert98]

Originally Posted by pgjocki

What radio station are you getting updates on? I am down in Prince George's County and the only AM talk radio that comes in is "Team 980" which is 7 fat guys who sit around talking about the Redskins 23 hours a day with 1 hour reserved for all other sports.

I sometimes listen to 105.7 the Fan in Baltimore (I try to catch the interviews with guys like Rich Dubroff).

Also, I "stream" the Baltimore Baseball Show (Baltimorebaseball.com), which airs every Monday on 1350 WOYK (A York based Sports Radio station), with Dan Connolly; That's a pretty good show. They post that program usually every Monday or Tuesday at that website.If you check the menu tab on the upper left of that site, check BB radio.

[NoOne]

that's okay, sports radio isn't that informative, lol.

the 7 fat guys talking about the redskins probably produce more relateable info for the MLB just by pure accident than a show dedicated to baseball.

just listening to their trade proposals is enough to evaluate their level of understanding of baseball. the announcer played in HS or somethign stupid like that, lol.. HS! a monkey can play baseball in high school... a monkey can play a sport a tiny college too. i could have played 1 possibly 2 sports at a small school. i'm not an athlete nor do i understand those professional sports on a day-to-day basis. (understanding math is different and how it applies to RL -- anyone with a brain can achieve that kind of understanding.. how to handle this or that emotional bs is different.. what's optimal for working out or when to rest, this is day to day stuff that requires experience not necessarily intelligence.)

don't get me started on call-ins... i have flashbacks to being in a public k-12 system for 5 years.

[Calvert98]

Originally Posted by NoOne

that's okay, sports radio isn't that informative, lol.

the 7 fat guys talking about the redskins probably produce more relateable info for the MLB just by pure accident than a show dedicated to baseball.

just listening to their trade proposals is enough to evaluate their level of understanding of baseball. the announcer played in HS or somethign stupid like that, lol.. HS! a monkey can play baseball in high school... a monkey can play a sport a tiny college too. i could have played 1 possibly 2 sports at a small school. i'm not an athlete nor do i understand those professional sports on a day-to-day basis. (understanding math is different and how it applies to RL -- anyone with a brain can achieve that kind of understanding.. how to handle this or that emotional bs is different.. what's optimal for working out or when to rest, this is day to day stuff that requires experience not necessarily intelligence.)

don't get me started on call-ins... i have flashbacks to being in a public k-12 system for 5 years.

Yea, I don't care at all for most of the call-ins. That's why I specifically mentioned that I try to listen to the interviews with guys like Rich.

And 105.7, they also interview folks like Keith Law, Duquette and folks from Orioles management or MASN, like Rick Dempsey. Rick Dempsey's discussion is usually really good. They also did a pretty interesting series for example where they checked-in with press guys from every major AL East market team right around Spring Training.

So, that's what I look for. I will check-in early, to see when they are talking to someone in Baseball that is interesting that day, and then I will try to tune-in at that time.

And Dan's show is only 30 minutes or so, but it's pretty good. He covered the Orioles for the Baltimore Sun at one point and the articles at the site are well written and they have some other good contributing writers there as well (like Rich). Dan often responds to posts on that site from readers, and is respectful, professional and I think fairly thoughtful.