Unorthodox Lineup Management

Silfir · 01-17-2018, 05:26 PM

(Skip the story if you like. It's more to work off my sudden onset of rage than anything. There's a legitimate point to this.)

So. It's the decisive game nine of the Best-of-Nine equivalent to the World Series of my fictional league.

Managing for me is Chris Holscombe, known as a manager with an "Unorthodox" management style.

It's the top of the 10th. The game is tied 1-1. It's Archie Given's turn to bat. He's the catcher. Obviously he has not been batting that well. My manager's managing senses are tingling. So he puts in Gonzalez, outfielder, batting a cool ~.300 OPS in the postseason. Now, obviously he still needs to have a catcher, but it's all good - backup catcher Tardy is still in the dugout.

Gonzalez inevitably flies out. Now it's the pitcher's turn, with runners on base. Yet another decisive moment for Chris Holscombe. Maybe he's going to keep the pitcher in, after all, this is shaping up to be a long game, and he's been hot. Then again, right now there is no catcher on the field, and the backup catcher is still sitting in the dugout.

Shockingly, Chris does, in fact, signal for Tardy to pinch hit. Naturally, he strikes out.

Oh well. Time to put on the ol' catching gear. Tardy has been around the block before, he knows his stuff. He has caught multiple postseasons, after all. He straps on the ol' chest-mat and cage-hat-thingy (I'm sure those must be the terms) and gets ready for some practice throws...

When suddenly, the head umpire shakes his head at him. Yannis Tardy looks around and sees Gonzalez, the outfielder, standing there, sheepishly.

You see, Chris Holcombe has a reputation to uphold. And thus, faced with the choice of replacing either of the two pinch hitters with his new pitcher, and needing to fill the catching position, and given the choice between a veteran catcher who's been hitting decently and who happens to be the current holder of the Gold Glove at Catcher, and a utility fielder who in the past season has had sessions in LF, CF, RF, SS, 2B and 1B, who despite his versatility had never once played Catcher before in his lifetime, and has been ice cold all post-season... Well, what choice did he have, really?

Say hello to catching debutant Rafael Gonzalez, sporting solid double 1-out-of-20s for revelant ratings. He catches for four more innings, committing no errors and grounding out in the 13th, and the game is ultimately lost on an error by the shortstop and a double.

Sometimes I wish I could read the baseball publications of OOTP world. Forget Joe Maddon; the true genius is the manager who, knowing the the entire world, but also his opposition expects him to put a Catcher behind the plate in the most important innings of the entire year, has the inspiration, the stone-cold audacity, the solid-brass balls to pick the other guy. The one nobody expects. The one who always had a catcher sleeping in him, unbeknownst to all scouts, coaches or literally anyone who had ever laid eyes on him. Truly, Chris Holcombe, of all the "Unorthodox" managers, you are a genius among men.

Here's your stuff in a box; these nice men will escort you off the premises. Get out of my sight, genius.

(STOP SKIMMING HERE) So, apparently the pinch hitting / double switching / whatever algorithms need some work. My best guess is that this happened:

C Given's turn to bat -> "I should pinch hit for him. I want to pick LF Gonzalez. This is okay, because C Tardy is still on the bench."
P Lau's turn to bat -> "I should pinch hit for him. I'm going to pick C Tardy. I don't have to think about positions because this is the pitcher, and whoever I pick is going to replaced by the next pitcher."
Next inning
Need new pitcher -> "That's easy. Putting in RP Kato for PH Tardy."
Catcher position needs filling -> "How strange, there is no valid Catcher on my bench, or in my lineup. I suppose my remaining PH will have to play Catcher. This is clearly fine - if my human master had wanted me to have a backup catcher, he would have put one on the roster. Silly human."

Anyone have any other explanation for what happened there?

thehef · 01-17-2018, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silfir

So, apparently the pinch hitting / double switching / whatever algorithms need some work....
Anyone have any other explanation for what happened there?

I think you nailed it.

OOTP seems to me to be two separate modules:

1) In-game AI
2) Everything else

I give OOTP an A grade for "everything else" and a solid B for in-game AI. I'm thinking that there are so many possibilities of how things will play out and how AI will react, and that your particular (entertaining) situation exposed a gap in the logic. Millions of possibilities, thousands of gaps found & corrected, maybe a few hundred yet to be found... or something like that

Silfir · 01-18-2018, 06:33 AM

I obviously have no idea how the game is coded.

It's possible that if you pinch hit for a pitcher, that specific pinch hitter is already hard locked into being replaced by the next pitcher. Maybe this is required to lead to proper behavior in other cases.

Another possibility is that the AI always replaces the pitcher first at the beginning of the next inning, and if there are multiple PHs, replaces the one it thinks is the worse hitter of the two, so the better hitter can keep playing, and doesn't consider position at that point.

What may be needed is an exception case for when multiple PHs are in the lineup that makes the AI consider the positions that need filling before it decides who gets swapped for the pitcher.

thehef · 01-18-2018, 01:41 PM

You could test this fairly simply, to at least get an idea what the AI does in this situation:

1) Create a test league
2) Plan to Individually manage a few team's games (use teams where you can recreate the situation in that they have a roster that includes the catchers and reserves of the type that you'll need). You shouldn't need to actually take control of the team for the whole game. Once you set the lineup (make sure it's set to where your catcher bats 8th), blaze ahead to the late-innings; if the game isn't close - thus you can't recreate the sitch - just finish and move on to the next game.
3) Either before the games and/or during the games, create the late-game situation by inactivating or using up (earlier in the game) players that you don't want to be available, so by late in the game you only have on your bench the three position players needed (solid defensive backup catcher, decent pinch-hitter who's not a catcher, and scrub OF who's not also a catcher... if I'm not mistaken).
4) When you get to the situation, manually take control of the team and make the pinch-hitting moves. Before the inning ends, however, give control of the team back to the Computer Manager.
5) See what happens.

In addition to games that aren't close, there may be many other things that occur to make individual games not suitable for this test - such as the Computer Manager using your needed backups earlier in the game, or the first pinch-hitter making the 3rd out, etc... But I'm guessing you can get a pretty good idea by putting an hour two into this, if you're curious. If so, please share what you find!

01-17-2018, 05:26 PM	#1
Silfir Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 137	Unorthodox Lineup Management (Skip the story if you like. It's more to work off my sudden onset of rage than anything. There's a legitimate point to this.) So. It's the decisive game nine of the Best-of-Nine equivalent to the World Series of my fictional league. Managing for me is Chris Holscombe, known as a manager with an "Unorthodox" management style. It's the top of the 10th. The game is tied 1-1. It's Archie Given's turn to bat. He's the catcher. Obviously he has not been batting that well. My manager's managing senses are tingling. So he puts in Gonzalez, outfielder, batting a cool ~.300 OPS in the postseason. Now, obviously he still needs to have a catcher, but it's all good - backup catcher Tardy is still in the dugout. Gonzalez inevitably flies out. Now it's the pitcher's turn, with runners on base. Yet another decisive moment for Chris Holscombe. Maybe he's going to keep the pitcher in, after all, this is shaping up to be a long game, and he's been hot. Then again, right now there is no catcher on the field, and the backup catcher is still sitting in the dugout. Shockingly, Chris does, in fact, signal for Tardy to pinch hit. Naturally, he strikes out. Oh well. Time to put on the ol' catching gear. Tardy has been around the block before, he knows his stuff. He has caught multiple postseasons, after all. He straps on the ol' chest-mat and cage-hat-thingy (I'm sure those must be the terms) and gets ready for some practice throws... When suddenly, the head umpire shakes his head at him. Yannis Tardy looks around and sees Gonzalez, the outfielder, standing there, sheepishly. You see, Chris Holcombe has a reputation to uphold. And thus, faced with the choice of replacing either of the two pinch hitters with his new pitcher, and needing to fill the catching position, and given the choice between a veteran catcher who's been hitting decently and who happens to be the current holder of the Gold Glove at Catcher, and a utility fielder who in the past season has had sessions in LF, CF, RF, SS, 2B and 1B, who despite his versatility had never once played Catcher before in his lifetime, and has been ice cold all post-season... Well, what choice did he have, really? Say hello to catching debutant Rafael Gonzalez, sporting solid double 1-out-of-20s for revelant ratings. He catches for four more innings, committing no errors and grounding out in the 13th, and the game is ultimately lost on an error by the shortstop and a double. Sometimes I wish I could read the baseball publications of OOTP world. Forget Joe Maddon; the true genius is the manager who, knowing the the entire world, but also his opposition expects him to put a Catcher behind the plate in the most important innings of the entire year, has the inspiration, the stone-cold audacity, the solid-brass balls to pick the other guy. The one nobody expects. The one who always had a catcher sleeping in him, unbeknownst to all scouts, coaches or literally anyone who had ever laid eyes on him. Truly, Chris Holcombe, of all the "Unorthodox" managers, you are a genius among men. Here's your stuff in a box; these nice men will escort you off the premises. Get out of my sight, genius. (STOP SKIMMING HERE) So, apparently the pinch hitting / double switching / whatever algorithms need some work. My best guess is that this happened: C Given's turn to bat -> "I should pinch hit for him. I want to pick LF Gonzalez. This is okay, because C Tardy is still on the bench." P Lau's turn to bat -> "I should pinch hit for him. I'm going to pick C Tardy. I don't have to think about positions because this is the pitcher, and whoever I pick is going to replaced by the next pitcher." Next inning Need new pitcher -> "That's easy. Putting in RP Kato for PH Tardy." Catcher position needs filling -> "How strange, there is no valid Catcher on my bench, or in my lineup. I suppose my remaining PH will have to play Catcher. This is clearly fine - if my human master had wanted me to have a backup catcher, he would have put one on the roster. Silly human." Anyone have any other explanation for what happened there? Last edited by Silfir; 01-17-2018 at 05:28 PM.

01-18-2018, 06:33 AM	#3
Silfir Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 137	I obviously have no idea how the game is coded. It's possible that if you pinch hit for a pitcher, that specific pinch hitter is already hard locked into being replaced by the next pitcher. Maybe this is required to lead to proper behavior in other cases. Another possibility is that the AI always replaces the pitcher first at the beginning of the next inning, and if there are multiple PHs, replaces the one it thinks is the worse hitter of the two, so the better hitter can keep playing, and doesn't consider position at that point. What may be needed is an exception case for when multiple PHs are in the lineup that makes the AI consider the positions that need filling before it decides who gets swapped for the pitcher.

01-18-2018, 01:41 PM	#4
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,389	You could test this fairly simply, to at least get an idea what the AI does in this situation: 1) Create a test league 2) Plan to Individually manage a few team's games (use teams where you can recreate the situation in that they have a roster that includes the catchers and reserves of the type that you'll need). You shouldn't need to actually take control of the team for the whole game. Once you set the lineup (make sure it's set to where your catcher bats 8th), blaze ahead to the late-innings; if the game isn't close - thus you can't recreate the sitch - just finish and move on to the next game. 3) Either before the games and/or during the games, create the late-game situation by inactivating or using up (earlier in the game) players that you don't want to be available, so by late in the game you only have on your bench the three position players needed (solid defensive backup catcher, decent pinch-hitter who's not a catcher, and scrub OF who's not also a catcher... if I'm not mistaken). 4) When you get to the situation, manually take control of the team and make the pinch-hitting moves. Before the inning ends, however, give control of the team back to the Computer Manager. 5) See what happens. In addition to games that aren't close, there may be many other things that occur to make individual games not suitable for this test - such as the Computer Manager using your needed backups earlier in the game, or the first pinch-hitter making the 3rd out, etc... But I'm guessing you can get a pretty good idea by putting an hour two into this, if you're curious. If so, please share what you find!