Forced substitution after injury

bjohn13 · 05-30-2017, 05:17 AM

Hello,

I've been playing this game for years, but there is a situation that I'd like to get some input on that tends to happen on a semi-regular basis that kind of drives me batty.

The situation is that my pitcher gets injured on the third out of the inning while on defense. Let's say the pitcher is due up 5th the following inning. The game makes me make a substitution for the pitcher right at that point when such a substitution isn't necessary due to the fact that it is the end of the half inning.

The result? Well, I don't know if my pitcher is going to be coming up or not in the next inning, so I don't know who to sub at that position. If I put in a new pitcher, now he has to bat. If I put in a position player with the expectation that the pitcher spot will come up in the inning, now that position player has to pitch.

Has anyone else run across this? My take is that if a player gets injured on a third out of an inning, I should have to replace him until either his spot in the order comes up or until he has to return to play defense. Thoughts?

Orcin · 05-30-2017, 11:57 AM

Yes, I have seen it. I agree it should be fixed.

Lukas Berger · 05-30-2017, 12:32 PM

Markus has mentioned that this is actually a very complicated issue, far more than it might appear, and one that it's nearly impossible to fix currently

SteveP · 05-30-2017, 12:35 PM

It's a fundamental element in the programming of the game. A player who is injured is immediately removed from the roster. A roster may not have an empty slot. Hence the situation you are observing. Apparently this cannot be fixed. Markus was even forced to introduce a kluge in the case of a pitcher who is injured on the last pitch of an inning. In that case, when the AI substitutes with a new pitcher at that moment, the new pitcher is recorded as having made one pitch (which he did not do in fact), so that it would be legal to substitute for that pitcher (with a PH, for example) immediately.

bjohn13 · 05-30-2017, 12:55 PM

Thank you for the responses.

It also makes sense now how I sometimes see players with no IP and a single pitch. I was puzzling over this last night as one of my opponents showed this phenomenon.

Even if there was a way to simply relax the requirement of forcing a pitcher to record an opposing plate appearance in the situations where this comes up would be an improvement. For instance, having an in-game plate appearance (any plate appearance, either offense or defense) meet this qualification would provide enough of a solution for me. The vast majority of the time, the lost roster spot has a less drastic effect than having to have a position player pitch to a batter or having to have a pitcher hit with the bases loaded in the bottom of the ninth.

It typically doesn't come up a lot, but I'm currently in a replay from the 19th century. There are a LOT of injuries back then. It will come up in about 10-15 times in a single team's season using the 19th century settings.

NoOne · 05-30-2017, 07:10 PM

what about attacking it from the other direction...

functions invovled with inserting the player... assume that's compartmentalized but i guess it may not be. something that causes a delay or not called until the player is used and qualified by batting/pitching half of the inning.

rhetorical in nature, i don't think any of that is a plug/n/play or anything but spark something, maybe... more than one action involved here, that may be exclusive functions from each other. the thing causing the problem may not be where the 'fix' needs to be applied.

bjohn13 · 05-30-2017, 09:00 PM

Believe it or not, this is something I noticed in previous versions of the game as well. I hope it gets considered again for the 2019 release. I don't buy a copy of the game *every* year (hint,hint). But I also understand that knowing what a solution will be is a completely different beast than knowing how many man-hours it will take to implement that solution.

At any rate, I figured I'd post on it because I had to send a pitcher to the mount in a situation I described above, and he hit into a double play to end the game. At the time, it was early in the year, and I had pipe dreams of a pennant after a hot start. I'm 12 games under .500 now, though, so I think I can safely say that although that at bat is what swung the season in the wrong direction, I've had plenty of chances to recover from that.

NoOne · 05-31-2017, 11:03 AM

if it was well-thought out, it shoudn't be a pain, lol... but, it's a game that's been slightly worked, tweaked, and changed each year for how many years... probably the real cause of why it's a headache.

typically there is very little redundancy in functions/actions whatever... you don't have multiple bits of code for removing a player from a game... it's one bit that's robust enough to do all necessary things without stepping onthe toes of another function (inefficient, redundant). object-orientated or whatever the new buzzword is in programming.. my CS degree is from the 90's... the concepts used in fortran/cobol are no different than c++, just because they start calling it object-orientated... it merely offered some better/easier ways to do so (e.g. "classes" (syntax?) are not new (techinically new with c++), but c++ essentially made it a sophisticated variable that can easily be tailored for lack of a better phrase). it was nothing you coudln't already do with a bit more effort and work in fortran and cobol. easier on the coder, same exact results/functionality in the application, though.

had it been orgnaized or maintained in that way over the years, it wouldn't be a headache... this should literally be an insert of a new qualification to delay the call to sub a player in for that situation. if it isn't then it's just to be inserted into multiple spots in the code "god knows where", and that's the b*tch of it.

this is a proverbial shooting yourself in the foot.. but it took multiple years to make it so bad... kinda worse, really... the only defense about not recognizing that it will cause a problem in future is ignorance.

there's an easy way to code things, then there's the right way to do it. literally 1000s of ways to get somethign done, but few are good ways.

05-30-2017, 05:17 AM	#1
bjohn13 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 47	Forced substitution after injury Hello, I've been playing this game for years, but there is a situation that I'd like to get some input on that tends to happen on a semi-regular basis that kind of drives me batty. The situation is that my pitcher gets injured on the third out of the inning while on defense. Let's say the pitcher is due up 5th the following inning. The game makes me make a substitution for the pitcher right at that point when such a substitution isn't necessary due to the fact that it is the end of the half inning. The result? Well, I don't know if my pitcher is going to be coming up or not in the next inning, so I don't know who to sub at that position. If I put in a new pitcher, now he has to bat. If I put in a position player with the expectation that the pitcher spot will come up in the inning, now that position player has to pitch. Has anyone else run across this? My take is that if a player gets injured on a third out of an inning, I should have to replace him until either his spot in the order comes up or until he has to return to play defense. Thoughts?

05-30-2017, 12:32 PM	#3
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 21,362	Markus has mentioned that this is actually a very complicated issue, far more than it might appear, and one that it's nearly impossible to fix currently __________________ lukas@ootpdevelopments.com PreOrder Out of the Park Baseball 26! Need to upload files for us to check out? Instructions can be found here

05-30-2017, 11:57 AM	#2
Orcin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,849	Yes, I have seen it. I agree it should be fixed.

05-30-2017, 12:35 PM	#4
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	It's a fundamental element in the programming of the game. A player who is injured is immediately removed from the roster. A roster may not have an empty slot. Hence the situation you are observing. Apparently this cannot be fixed. Markus was even forced to introduce a kluge in the case of a pitcher who is injured on the last pitch of an inning. In that case, when the AI substitutes with a new pitcher at that moment, the new pitcher is recorded as having made one pitch (which he did not do in fact), so that it would be legal to substitute for that pitcher (with a PH, for example) immediately.

05-30-2017, 12:55 PM	#5
bjohn13 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 47	Thank you for the responses. It also makes sense now how I sometimes see players with no IP and a single pitch. I was puzzling over this last night as one of my opponents showed this phenomenon. Even if there was a way to simply relax the requirement of forcing a pitcher to record an opposing plate appearance in the situations where this comes up would be an improvement. For instance, having an in-game plate appearance (any plate appearance, either offense or defense) meet this qualification would provide enough of a solution for me. The vast majority of the time, the lost roster spot has a less drastic effect than having to have a position player pitch to a batter or having to have a pitcher hit with the bases loaded in the bottom of the ninth. It typically doesn't come up a lot, but I'm currently in a replay from the 19th century. There are a LOT of injuries back then. It will come up in about 10-15 times in a single team's season using the 19th century settings.

05-30-2017, 07:10 PM	#6
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	what about attacking it from the other direction... functions invovled with inserting the player... assume that's compartmentalized but i guess it may not be. something that causes a delay or not called until the player is used and qualified by batting/pitching half of the inning. rhetorical in nature, i don't think any of that is a plug/n/play or anything but spark something, maybe... more than one action involved here, that may be exclusive functions from each other. the thing causing the problem may not be where the 'fix' needs to be applied.

05-30-2017, 09:00 PM	#7
bjohn13 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 47	Believe it or not, this is something I noticed in previous versions of the game as well. I hope it gets considered again for the 2019 release. I don't buy a copy of the game every year (hint,hint). But I also understand that knowing what a solution will be is a completely different beast than knowing how many man-hours it will take to implement that solution. At any rate, I figured I'd post on it because I had to send a pitcher to the mount in a situation I described above, and he hit into a double play to end the game. At the time, it was early in the year, and I had pipe dreams of a pennant after a hot start. I'm 12 games under .500 now, though, so I think I can safely say that although that at bat is what swung the season in the wrong direction, I've had plenty of chances to recover from that.

05-31-2017, 11:03 AM	#8
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	if it was well-thought out, it shoudn't be a pain, lol... but, it's a game that's been slightly worked, tweaked, and changed each year for how many years... probably the real cause of why it's a headache. typically there is very little redundancy in functions/actions whatever... you don't have multiple bits of code for removing a player from a game... it's one bit that's robust enough to do all necessary things without stepping onthe toes of another function (inefficient, redundant). object-orientated or whatever the new buzzword is in programming.. my CS degree is from the 90's... the concepts used in fortran/cobol are no different than c++, just because they start calling it object-orientated... it merely offered some better/easier ways to do so (e.g. "classes" (syntax?) are not new (techinically new with c++), but c++ essentially made it a sophisticated variable that can easily be tailored for lack of a better phrase). it was nothing you coudln't already do with a bit more effort and work in fortran and cobol. easier on the coder, same exact results/functionality in the application, though. had it been orgnaized or maintained in that way over the years, it wouldn't be a headache... this should literally be an insert of a new qualification to delay the call to sub a player in for that situation. if it isn't then it's just to be inserted into multiple spots in the code "god knows where", and that's the b*tch of it. this is a proverbial shooting yourself in the foot.. but it took multiple years to make it so bad... kinda worse, really... the only defense about not recognizing that it will cause a problem in future is ignorance. there's an easy way to code things, then there's the right way to do it. literally 1000s of ways to get somethign done, but few are good ways.