Defensive players paying off???

case · 05-20-2017, 12:05 AM

How can you tell if / when a fielder makes an above routine play in the field. Is there any way to know when this happens in the game. I want to know if my defensive subs are paying off when I put them in the game. That is, are they making a difference for me.
I have made requests to the devs with suggestions on adding such a feature (like something as simple as an indicator above the fielder as he is making the play or maybe he flashes or anything) but have gotten no response from them as to whether it is doable, will get done, or even a simple no.
So my question is; is there a way already present in the 18 version of the game to know this. I do not own ootp 18 but I do have 17, 16, and have had in the past 15, 12, 11, 10, and several others previous all the way back to I believe 5. Defensive play is really important to me, and should be to anyone serious about simulating a baseball universe, and I had decided I would not upgrade until there was something in a new version that would give me this information.

finn · 05-20-2017, 12:51 AM

If you're playing/managing the games, occasionally the commentary will include something along the lines of "Great play", "Impressive catch", etc.

I don't think there's any other way to find out about individual plays, but players who play better defensively will tend to have higher defensive stats -- ZR, Efficiency, etc.

case · 05-20-2017, 02:35 AM

The pbp defensive comments are strictly cosmetic/flavor so to speak.

RchW · 05-20-2017, 03:01 AM

Defensive subs can only make a difference if the ball is hit to them or they handle the transition in a GDP. Of that small sample subset any defensive play they make must be great and come with high leverage an even smaller sample size than above. I doubt if any one defensive sub makes 5 such plays in a season.

case · 05-20-2017, 11:36 PM

I do appreciate the reply. But my question is not do defensive players make a difference or how often, but I want to be made aware when they do. In real life you good defensive plays are made each and everyday. And really good defensive plays are made probably weekly. Just watching a game you see each hit if the play on the ball required really good skills or was just routine. I want to be notified when they are better than routine plays.

Simmo13 · 05-21-2017, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by case

The pbp defensive comments are strictly cosmetic/flavor so to speak.

My impression is that they are more than cosmetic in this version. I play out all my team's games and PBP includes comments like "a lesser defensive player doesn't make that play" or " maybe a better defensive player gets to that". I usually check the player in question's ratings to see if there's a correlation between the defense and the PBP and it seems that there is. This is, admittedly, anecdotal in the sense that I've not kept any record of these instances and many OOTP versions ago I asked Markus if plays that were affected by defensive skill and positioning could be included in PBP...so I guess I'm hoping that this is the case.

RchW · 05-21-2017, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by case

I do appreciate the reply. But my question is not do defensive players make a difference or how often, but I want to be made aware when they do. In real life you good defensive plays are made each and everyday. And really good defensive plays are made probably weekly. Just watching a game you see each hit if the play on the ball required really good skills or was just routine. I want to be notified when they are better than routine plays.

But we know that for superior defensive players a routine play for them might be a great play for the replaced player. Not sure how one would decide how such a play would be tagged.

Simmo13 · 05-21-2017, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

But we know that for superior defensive players a routine play for them might be a great play for the replaced player. Not sure how one would decide how such a play would be tagged.

Good point. Actually I'd overlooked the bit about "defensive subs" in the original post... I was just assuming that plays where outstanding/poor defensive ratings had impacted upon the result, were being pointed out.

case · 05-21-2017, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

But we know that for superior defensive players a routine play for them might be a great play for the replaced player. Not sure how one would decide how such a play would be tagged.

I do understand your point and it is something I had not considered. But I am thinking now we shouldn't base it on plays relative to the player, ie he made a good play considering HIS ratings. But rather relative to the max defensive ratings and based simply on the ball location on the field and how much of that is consumed by the def players ratings. I guess what I mean is fans can easily tell when a player makes a play that is above routine and that is not based on knowing what that particular player was capable of but rather what maybe the league standard or average is. I really think it is not difficult at all. None of this is meant to sound b!tchy toward your reply so please don't think that. (It is easy to misconvey feelings in text) and I think together maybe some of us can pressure the devs to expand the def aspect of the game and make it more informative.

Thanks

Reed · 05-21-2017, 07:03 PM

I think the assumption of the OP may be wrong. Is it the primary purpose of a defensive sub to make a great play or is it to avoid errors on routine plays? I.E. would you want a player that can make a great play but is error prone or a very steady, reliable player as your defensive sub??
I guess that can be argued either way.

NoOne · 05-21-2017, 09:56 PM

you're overthinking a video game too much on the defensive stuff.

the 3d / pbp may have some cosmetic components as another mentioned.

there're 3 defensive ratings of note for most players. ability, arm, error, and 2 for catchers. those things are plugged in as you would expect, when you expect to check them.

if a ball is within the range of their defensive range rating (relative to any factors the game considers) and the dice roll says they made the play while influenced by their error rating. the dynamics and sophistication may not be so simple, but that's what it will boil down to, nonetheless.

do they model the physics? does it consider variation like hard or soft grounder, line drive vs fly ball etc... that would just add layers of sophistication, but still the same conceptually. the player just adds 3 variables to that equation. (guess range+error then throwing+error would be more descriptive? fielding and then throwing are their own calculations)

but, all the stuff the player doesn't control will significantly dictate the answer to your question...

how much of a difference from 50/80 to 80/80 in any of these defensive ratings? no idea.

whether you value it or not, just be consistent throughout... e.g. if you go more offense over defense, get pitchers that can minimize that - high K/9, maybe flyball pitchers? (guessing on 2nd one, no extremes).. you get the idea. if your results are better/worse than what you were doing befoe, you know it's a step in the right direction.

great defenses can make certain pitchers look amazing... they both get credit. it also gives you more options for top-shelf SP("1"-"2's").

maybe with a tight budget and possibly even requiring a different era it may be a good way to go, but any modern / defaultish league good offense with ~average defense provides way more ROI than great defense with ~average offense.

case · 05-22-2017, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reed

I think the assumption of the OP may be wrong. Is it the primary purpose of a defensive sub to make a great play or is it to avoid errors on routine plays? I.E. would you want a player that can make a great play but is error prone or a very steady, reliable player as your defensive sub??
I guess that can be argued either way.

I believe you are missing the point. The question is not what constitutes a great or good play but simply being made aware of a good play.

case · 05-22-2017, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoOne

you're overthinking a video game too much on the defensive stuff.

the 3d / pbp may have some cosmetic components as another mentioned.

there're 3 defensive ratings of note for most players. ability, arm, error, and 2 for catchers. those things are plugged in as you would expect, when you expect to check them.

if a ball is within the range of their defensive range rating (relative to any factors the game considers) and the dice roll says they made the play while influenced by their error rating. the dynamics and sophistication may not be so simple, but that's what it will boil down to, nonetheless.

do they model the physics? does it consider variation like hard or soft grounder, line drive vs fly ball etc... that would just add layers of sophistication, but still the same conceptually. the player just adds 3 variables to that equation. (guess range+error then throwing+error would be more descriptive? fielding and then throwing are their own calculations)

but, all the stuff the player doesn't control will significantly dictate the answer to your question...

how much of a difference from 50/80 to 80/80 in any of these defensive ratings? no idea.

whether you value it or not, just be consistent throughout... e.g. if you go more offense over defense, get pitchers that can minimize that - high K/9, maybe flyball pitchers? (guessing on 2nd one, no extremes).. you get the idea. if your results are better/worse than what you were doing befoe, you know it's a step in the right direction.

great defenses can make certain pitchers look amazing... they both get credit. it also gives you more options for top-shelf SP("1"-"2's").

maybe with a tight budget and possibly even requiring a different era it may be a good way to go, but any modern / defaultish league good offense with ~average defense provides way more ROI than great defense with ~average offense.

How is questioning whether or not we can be made aware of good defensive plays, overthinking. You've totally lost me.

OldFatGuy · 05-22-2017, 08:41 AM

Are defensive players paying off? You betcha!!!! (As someone a few years back was wont to say).

LOL, my OOTP18 tweaking/playing is on hold for awhile as I await the next patch, so it's back to my "nostalgia" league from OOTP 11 this morning.

And Manager OldFatGuy of the Tampa Bay Rays out did himself in today's game. He used his noggin for a change!!!! Yessir. OldFatGuy says to hisself.... "Hmmm, mah pitchah donn strike nobudy out, so mayhap I oughta put sumbudy out dere dat kin kach da dang ball.."

And it worked briliantly....

.....

LOL. I sooo love this game. Just like the real thing... it will make make you say a few choice words..... or start drinking at 8:00 AM....

(It got so I was afraid to hit the button for the next play.... thought I might have to postpone the game due to mouse button failure.

case · 05-24-2017, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Are defensive players paying off? You betcha!!!! (As someone a few years back was wont to say).

LOL, my OOTP18 tweaking/playing is on hold for awhile as I await the next patch, so it's back to my "nostalgia" league from OOTP 11 this morning.

And Manager OldFatGuy of the Tampa Bay Rays out did himself in today's game. He used his noggin for a change!!!! Yessir. OldFatGuy says to hisself.... "Hmmm, mah pitchah donn strike nobudy out, so mayhap I oughta put sumbudy out dere dat kin kach da dang ball.."

And it worked briliantly....

.....

LOL. I sooo love this game. Just like the real thing... it will make make you say a few choice words..... or start drinking at 8:00 AM....

(It got so I was afraid to hit the button for the next play.... thought I might have to postpone the game due to mouse button failure.

Come on guys read the actual text of the post not just the subject line.

Harmon Killebrew · 05-25-2017, 12:42 AM

Case, I suspect that only the games programmers can answer the questions you asked in the original post, to your satisfaction.

I've kind of wished for a bit more info on this myself while playing games, but taken it on a leap of faith that the programming is there but it just doesn't tell us what we fully want to know.
Sometimes there is a pbp line that says only a 'great' (or whatever word is used, I forget at the moment),,, 'only a great fielder makes that play'. But... sometimes it says that and it is not a great fielder who makes that play which basically invalidates the text written about that pbp info for that play.

Gorinski · 05-27-2017, 12:06 AM

Case, I think you asked a very important question which I've thought about quite a bit. That is one of the things I appreciate about Strat-O-Matic is that when playing out a game you are made aware if a player's defense impacted a play.

I think it would be a great addition to the immersion in playing OOTP if we knew specifically when a hit was taken away by a great defensive play or if there was a hit because of a lack of range.

Rain King · 05-27-2017, 10:14 AM

We have "Statcast" in MLB now, I think it is a reasonable feature request for the game to once in a while tell us something like that ball gets caught 12% of the time or whatever (and also the other way when maybe a play doesn't get made that should have, but isn't an error).

case · 05-30-2017, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmon Killebrew

Case, I suspect that only the games programmers can answer the questions you asked in the original post, to your satisfaction.

I've kind of wished for a bit more info on this myself while playing games, but taken it on a leap of faith that the programming is there but it just doesn't tell us what we fully want to know.
Sometimes there is a pbp line that says only a 'great' (or whatever word is used, I forget at the moment),,, 'only a great fielder makes that play'. But... sometimes it says that and it is not a great fielder who makes that play which basically invalidates the text written about that pbp info for that play.

Thanks. Do you know who would be a good one to talk to about this and can you also help make the devs aware of this need.

bjohn13 · 05-30-2017, 09:34 PM

I think this is an intriguing request, and I would prefer some kind of variant. There are games where a defender makes more than one great defensive play oftentimes to save the game. These types of plays, though probably rare, should be showcased in some way. For instance, say I have a third baseman who goes 1 for 4 from the plate and scores a run. Not huge numbers, but he also snagged two hot liners that were headed into the left field corner with runners in scoring position. He probably saved 3-4 runs with his glove. Guy deserves the game MVP award.

My concern, though, is the fact that the average fan usually *can't* tell when a fielder is making a great play or if he's making a routine play on the edge of his range. A case in point could be made for Derek Jeter. A lot of die hard Yankee fans that watched him play for most of his career will assert that he was a great defensive shortstop. The numbers don't bear that out. He was an extremely consistent shortstop, but he gave up a lot of hits through gaps that a quicker shortstop would have gotten to. How do we know that the guy who is being replaced would not have made that play?

I rarely use defensive replacements because pitching and defense tend to be something I concentrate on as a core philosophy. A great defensive team can be had for cheap. If I'm regularly replacing a guy because he's a defensive liability, there is a high likelihood that I'll be considering him as trade bait in the offseason unless he is an offensive powerhouse.

05-20-2017, 12:05 AM	#1
case Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 27	Defensive players paying off??? How can you tell if / when a fielder makes an above routine play in the field. Is there any way to know when this happens in the game. I want to know if my defensive subs are paying off when I put them in the game. That is, are they making a difference for me. I have made requests to the devs with suggestions on adding such a feature (like something as simple as an indicator above the fielder as he is making the play or maybe he flashes or anything) but have gotten no response from them as to whether it is doable, will get done, or even a simple no. So my question is; is there a way already present in the 18 version of the game to know this. I do not own ootp 18 but I do have 17, 16, and have had in the past 15, 12, 11, 10, and several others previous all the way back to I believe 5. Defensive play is really important to me, and should be to anyone serious about simulating a baseball universe, and I had decided I would not upgrade until there was something in a new version that would give me this information.

05-20-2017, 12:51 AM	#2
finn Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2017 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 26	If you're playing/managing the games, occasionally the commentary will include something along the lines of "Great play", "Impressive catch", etc. I don't think there's any other way to find out about individual plays, but players who play better defensively will tend to have higher defensive stats -- ZR, Efficiency, etc. __________________ Olive \|\| She/Her/They/Them Instagram \|\| Tumblr \|\| Bandcamp \|\| Twitter

05-20-2017, 03:01 AM	#4
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Defensive subs can only make a difference if the ball is hit to them or they handle the transition in a GDP. Of that small sample subset any defensive play they make must be great and come with high leverage an even smaller sample size than above. I doubt if any one defensive sub makes 5 such plays in a season. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

05-22-2017, 08:41 AM	#14
OldFatGuy All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern Va., Loudoun County Posts: 1,902	Are defensive players paying off? You betcha!!!! (As someone a few years back was wont to say). LOL, my OOTP18 tweaking/playing is on hold for awhile as I await the next patch, so it's back to my "nostalgia" league from OOTP 11 this morning. And Manager OldFatGuy of the Tampa Bay Rays out did himself in today's game. He used his noggin for a change!!!! Yessir. OldFatGuy says to hisself.... "Hmmm, mah pitchah donn strike nobudy out, so mayhap I oughta put sumbudy out dere dat kin kach da dang ball.." And it worked briliantly.... ..... LOL. I sooo love this game. Just like the real thing... it will make make you say a few choice words..... or start drinking at 8:00 AM.... (It got so I was afraid to hit the button for the next play.... thought I might have to postpone the game due to mouse button failure. Attached Images __________________ I believed in drug testing a long time ago. In the 60's I tested everything. - Bill Lee Last edited by OldFatGuy; 05-22-2017 at 08:43 AM.

05-27-2017, 10:14 AM	#18
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,323	We have "Statcast" in MLB now, I think it is a reasonable feature request for the game to once in a while tell us something like that ball gets caught 12% of the time or whatever (and also the other way when maybe a play doesn't get made that should have, but isn't an error). Last edited by Rain King; 05-27-2017 at 10:19 AM.

05-20-2017, 02:35 AM	#3
case Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 27	The pbp defensive comments are strictly cosmetic/flavor so to speak.

05-20-2017, 11:36 PM	#5
case Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 27	I do appreciate the reply. But my question is not do defensive players make a difference or how often, but I want to be made aware when they do. In real life you good defensive plays are made each and everyday. And really good defensive plays are made probably weekly. Just watching a game you see each hit if the play on the ball required really good skills or was just routine. I want to be notified when they are better than routine plays.

05-21-2017, 07:03 PM	#10
Reed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 2,734	I think the assumption of the OP may be wrong. Is it the primary purpose of a defensive sub to make a great play or is it to avoid errors on routine plays? I.E. would you want a player that can make a great play but is error prone or a very steady, reliable player as your defensive sub?? I guess that can be argued either way.

05-21-2017, 09:56 PM	#11
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	you're overthinking a video game too much on the defensive stuff. the 3d / pbp may have some cosmetic components as another mentioned. there're 3 defensive ratings of note for most players. ability, arm, error, and 2 for catchers. those things are plugged in as you would expect, when you expect to check them. if a ball is within the range of their defensive range rating (relative to any factors the game considers) and the dice roll says they made the play while influenced by their error rating. the dynamics and sophistication may not be so simple, but that's what it will boil down to, nonetheless. do they model the physics? does it consider variation like hard or soft grounder, line drive vs fly ball etc... that would just add layers of sophistication, but still the same conceptually. the player just adds 3 variables to that equation. (guess range+error then throwing+error would be more descriptive? fielding and then throwing are their own calculations) but, all the stuff the player doesn't control will significantly dictate the answer to your question... how much of a difference from 50/80 to 80/80 in any of these defensive ratings? no idea. whether you value it or not, just be consistent throughout... e.g. if you go more offense over defense, get pitchers that can minimize that - high K/9, maybe flyball pitchers? (guessing on 2nd one, no extremes).. you get the idea. if your results are better/worse than what you were doing befoe, you know it's a step in the right direction. great defenses can make certain pitchers look amazing... they both get credit. it also gives you more options for top-shelf SP("1"-"2's"). maybe with a tight budget and possibly even requiring a different era it may be a good way to go, but any modern / defaultish league good offense with ~average defense provides way more ROI than great defense with ~average offense.

05-25-2017, 12:42 AM	#16
Harmon Killebrew Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 109	Case, I suspect that only the games programmers can answer the questions you asked in the original post, to your satisfaction. I've kind of wished for a bit more info on this myself while playing games, but taken it on a leap of faith that the programming is there but it just doesn't tell us what we fully want to know. Sometimes there is a pbp line that says only a 'great' (or whatever word is used, I forget at the moment),,, 'only a great fielder makes that play'. But... sometimes it says that and it is not a great fielder who makes that play which basically invalidates the text written about that pbp info for that play.

05-27-2017, 12:06 AM	#17
Gorinski Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 78	Case, I think you asked a very important question which I've thought about quite a bit. That is one of the things I appreciate about Strat-O-Matic is that when playing out a game you are made aware if a player's defense impacted a play. I think it would be a great addition to the immersion in playing OOTP if we knew specifically when a hit was taken away by a great defensive play or if there was a hit because of a lack of range.

05-30-2017, 09:34 PM	#20
bjohn13 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 48	I think this is an intriguing request, and I would prefer some kind of variant. There are games where a defender makes more than one great defensive play oftentimes to save the game. These types of plays, though probably rare, should be showcased in some way. For instance, say I have a third baseman who goes 1 for 4 from the plate and scores a run. Not huge numbers, but he also snagged two hot liners that were headed into the left field corner with runners in scoring position. He probably saved 3-4 runs with his glove. Guy deserves the game MVP award. My concern, though, is the fact that the average fan usually can't tell when a fielder is making a great play or if he's making a routine play on the edge of his range. A case in point could be made for Derek Jeter. A lot of die hard Yankee fans that watched him play for most of his career will assert that he was a great defensive shortstop. The numbers don't bear that out. He was an extremely consistent shortstop, but he gave up a lot of hits through gaps that a quicker shortstop would have gotten to. How do we know that the guy who is being replaced would not have made that play? I rarely use defensive replacements because pitching and defense tend to be something I concentrate on as a core philosophy. A great defensive team can be had for cheap. If I'm regularly replacing a guy because he's a defensive liability, there is a high likelihood that I'll be considering him as trade bait in the offseason unless he is an offensive powerhouse.