Optimal positions in lineup

sbr036 · 03-29-2017, 09:17 PM

Hi all. A few years ago there was a lot of talk about batting order lineups where some said that best hitter should be batting second. I can no longer find some good explanations of how to build an optimal batting order based upon players.
Love to hear someone's ideas on this or direct me to somewhere that has this info. Thanks

TuckerDuckson · 03-29-2017, 09:23 PM

1- Fast guy with decent OBP
2- A guy with really good contact and a decent eye who has the ability to move the runner over
3- Your best power hitter
4- Your best hitter overall, a combination of power, and contact. This allows you to protect #3, and allow him to get good pitches to hit.
5-Your second best hitter to protect #4
6- A toss up, I prefer speed here, however, a good contact guy is good here
7- Your Catcher/Other Player
8- Your Catcher/Other Player
9- A speedy contact guy you can use as a secret leadoff hitter, allows you to basically repeat the lineup one batter early.

Padreman · 03-29-2017, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TuckerDuckson

1- Fast guy with decent OBP
2- A guy with really good contact and a decent eye who has the ability to move the runner over
3- Your best power hitter
4- Your best hitter overall, a combination of power, and contact. This allows you to protect #3, and allow him to get good pitches to hit.
5-Your second best hitter to protect #4
6- A toss up, I prefer speed here, however, a good contact guy is good here
7- Your Catcher/Other Player
8- Your Catcher/Other Player
9- A speedy contact guy you can use as a secret leadoff hitter, allows you to basically repeat the lineup one batter early.

I would flip 3 and 4

TuckerDuckson · 03-29-2017, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Padreman

I would flip 3 and 4

I semi agree here, 3 and 4 can be interchangeable, however, I like having my best power hitter protected by the presence of the best hitter on the team right behind him.

For example, my Tigers line up is
1- Kinsler
2- J.D Martinez
3- Upton
4- Cabrera
5- V. Martinez
6- Castellanos
7- McCann
8- Mahtook
9- Iglesias/Romine/Machado

With this line up, I have been getting amazing production out of Upton ~35 HR, a .295 avg in mid august. See, I don't know if OOTP has incorporated the whole "protection" phenomenon that some teams use, but I like to think that Upton is getting decent pitches to hit because of Cabrera, V. Mart and Nicky C. behind him in that triple tandem of pain, which is helping his overall production. It's just a theory though, I don't know if this is actually due to my lineup settings or due to some lucky RNG with hotstreaks.

Padreman · 03-29-2017, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TuckerDuckson

I semi agree here, 3 and 4 can be interchangeable, however, I like having my best power hitter protected by the presence of the best hitter on the team right behind him.

For example, my Tigers line up is
1- Kinsler
2- J.D Martinez
3- Upton
4- Cabrera
5- V. Martinez
6- Castellanos
7- McCann
8- Mahtook
9- Iglesias/Romine/Machado

With this line up, I have been getting amazing production out of Upton ~35 HR, a .295 avg in mid august. See, I don't know if OOTP has incorporated the whole "protection" phenomenon that some teams use, but I like to think that Upton is getting decent pitches to hit because of Cabrera, V. Mart and Nicky C. behind him in that triple tandem of pain, which is helping his overall production. It's just a theory though, I don't know if this is actually due to my lineup settings or due to some lucky RNG with hotstreaks.

I like your reasoning. Gave me something to think about

Padreman · 03-29-2017, 09:36 PM

If your using DH basically 9 professional hitters I don't put my worst hitter 9th I put him 8th have a guy that can get on in 9th

professor ape · 03-29-2017, 09:46 PM

Bill James has spent a good bit of time studying the impact of the construction of batting orders. The conclusion has been that (as counterintuitive at it may seem) the impact of the traditional 'optimal' lineup over random orders is much less than expected. Maybe a few runs over the course of the season.

Basically as long as you aren't putting a pitcher in the #3 slot, there are a lot of other things to put your energy into rather than stressing about whether to bat someone 4th or 5th.

ThePretender · 03-29-2017, 09:51 PM

#1 doesn't need to be fast. Good OBP guy, and one of your 3 best hitters overall.

Painmantle · 03-29-2017, 09:54 PM

http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-b...eupAnalysis.py

Interesting stuff, I'm always been pretty much a traditionalist, sabermetrics isn't really my thing LOL

RchW · 03-29-2017, 09:55 PM

In modern baseball the number 2 hitter does not "move the runner over". That's like 1960's style.

Padreman · 03-29-2017, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painmantle

http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-b...eupAnalysis.py

Interesting stuff, I'm always been pretty much a traditionalist, sabermetrics isn't really my thing LOL

Is there a more current model?

RchW · 03-29-2017, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Padreman

Is there a more current model?

That link has not been considered up to date for some time. Look at the model year ranges.

actionjackson · 03-29-2017, 10:38 PM

I think this is the kind of stuff you're looking for sbr036, at least based on your OP and the best hitter going in the #2 slot.

sbr036 · 03-29-2017, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TuckerDuckson

1- Fast guy with decent OBP
2- A guy with really good contact and a decent eye who has the ability to move the runner over
3- Your best power hitter
4- Your best hitter overall, a combination of power, and contact. This allows you to protect #3, and allow him to get good pitches to hit.
5-Your second best hitter to protect #4
6- A toss up, I prefer speed here, however, a good contact guy is good here
7- Your Catcher/Other Player
8- Your Catcher/Other Player
9- A speedy contact guy you can use as a secret leadoff hitter, allows you to basically repeat the lineup one batter early.

thanks for this. It helps a lot with the reasoning you have behind it. My problem with my team at the moment is getting more power into the lineup. I find that my 3-5 batters just dont have the power for the lineup to be optimal for those batting 1st 2nd and 9th.

sbr036 · 03-29-2017, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjackson

I think this is the kind of stuff you're looking for sbr036, at least based on your OP and the best hitter going in the #2 slot.

yes. this is what i had heard about on a podcast. Thanks. that's awesome.

mmarra82 · 03-30-2017, 03:29 PM

Two good reads about optimizing your lineup:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/200...your-lineup-by

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/are-l...ore-optimized/

slugger922cubs · 03-30-2017, 03:59 PM

Unless you want to play a speed game dont overvalue speed at lead off. Its more important imo that the leadoff guy gets OBP as much as possible. If hes got a little pop doubles and leadoff HR will more than offset the in ability to occasionally steal second. The Cubs have occasionally used Rizzo in lead off and plan to have Schwaber lead off often this year. Often speed is more value at the back fo the line up where weaker hitters can leg out extra bases if theyre once the line up rolls back around to the top.

drhay53 · 03-30-2017, 05:07 PM

This is what I do, in this order of selection:

2 - highest OPS
4 - highest SLG remaining
1 - highest OBP remaining
5 - highest SLG remaining
3 - highest OPS remaining
6-9 OPS descending order

Technically, I actually select the top 5 hitters by OPS, use them to fill slots 1-5 as shown above, and then fill in 6-9.

Painmantle · 03-30-2017, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjackson

I think this is the kind of stuff you're looking for sbr036, at least based on your OP and the best hitter going in the #2 slot.

This statment from that link tells me I really don't need sbaermetrics to figure out how to build a lineup

Quote:

#1 Hitter:

The 1 hitter is closest to the 2 and 5 hitters in terms of RE values; however the 1 hitter holds a large advantage in walks and a large disadvantage in home runs. From this, we gather that the 1 hitter should have the ability to draw walks.

Anyone · 03-31-2017, 12:06 PM

1) Best OBP among those that don't slug well enough to hit 3rd or 4th. Speed is a bonus, but not important.

2) Good OBP also, but more balance between OBP and other offensive skills than my leadoff man. I won't use a real power hitter here, though.

3) Usually the best all-around hitter, but definitely a guy with all around offensive skills. I want all of BA/OBP/SLG to be high. I'll accept fewer walks here though and go for BA over OBP sometimes, partly because the #3 hitter leads off innings less often than any other spot.

4) The best power hitter, generally, although he can't just hit home runs and make tons of outs or something. He's sometimes the best overall hitter, if my best power hitter also has good OBP.

5) The best home run hitter who's not batting 3rd or 4th, unless said hitter has really bad OBP. I like walks here somewhat as well as speed, because the #5 hitter leads off more innings than anyone other than the leadoff man.

6) The best hitter not above him.

7) Of the two weakest-hitting nonpitchers, the one with the higher OBP relative to slugging, as a walk when the pitcher is due up has less value.

8) The reverse among the two weakest-hitting nonpitchers. More SLG relative to OBP, drive the runners in before the pitcher comes up.

9) The pitcher, because I don't play with the DH and haven't come around to the sabermetric fad of batting the pitcher 8th. If I did hit the pitcher 8th, I'd bat the guy I currently lead off #9 instead. That might lead to moving everyone else up a spot, but maybe not exactly because what I do is partially based on the #3 guy leading off the fewest innings and the #5 guy most likely to lead off the 2nd.

If I used a DH, my #9 hitter would almost literally be the highest in "OBP minus SLG." I'd want someone who might get on base for the better hitters, but because the spot would come up the least I wouldn't want too good of an overall hitter in it.

03-29-2017, 09:36 PM	#6
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,138	If your using DH basically 9 professional hitters I don't put my worst hitter 9th I put him 8th have a guy that can get on in 9th __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

03-29-2017, 09:55 PM	#10
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	In modern baseball the number 2 hitter does not "move the runner over". That's like 1960's style. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

03-29-2017, 09:17 PM	#1
sbr036 Bat Boy Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 5	Optimal positions in lineup Hi all. A few years ago there was a lot of talk about batting order lineups where some said that best hitter should be batting second. I can no longer find some good explanations of how to build an optimal batting order based upon players. Love to hear someone's ideas on this or direct me to somewhere that has this info. Thanks

03-29-2017, 09:23 PM	#2
TuckerDuckson Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 447	1- Fast guy with decent OBP 2- A guy with really good contact and a decent eye who has the ability to move the runner over 3- Your best power hitter 4- Your best hitter overall, a combination of power, and contact. This allows you to protect #3, and allow him to get good pitches to hit. 5-Your second best hitter to protect #4 6- A toss up, I prefer speed here, however, a good contact guy is good here 7- Your Catcher/Other Player 8- Your Catcher/Other Player 9- A speedy contact guy you can use as a secret leadoff hitter, allows you to basically repeat the lineup one batter early. __________________ Plays legit baseball now. My OOTP ratings are low. 2022 update: I'm two stars!

03-29-2017, 09:46 PM	#7
professor ape All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The belly of the beast Posts: 1,498	Bill James has spent a good bit of time studying the impact of the construction of batting orders. The conclusion has been that (as counterintuitive at it may seem) the impact of the traditional 'optimal' lineup over random orders is much less than expected. Maybe a few runs over the course of the season. Basically as long as you aren't putting a pitcher in the #3 slot, there are a lot of other things to put your energy into rather than stressing about whether to bat someone 4th or 5th.

03-29-2017, 09:51 PM	#8
ThePretender All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,321	#1 doesn't need to be fast. Good OBP guy, and one of your 3 best hitters overall.

03-29-2017, 09:54 PM	#9
Painmantle Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Greenfield ,IN Posts: 3,053	http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-b...eupAnalysis.py Interesting stuff, I'm always been pretty much a traditionalist, sabermetrics isn't really my thing LOL __________________ “As soon as I got out there I felt a strange relationship with the pitcher's mound. It was as if I'd been born out there. Pitching just felt like the most natural thing in the world. Striking out batters was easy.” -Babe Ruth “Ruth made a grave mistake when he gave up pitching. Working once a week, he might have lasted a long time and become a great star.”-Tris Speaker My Dynasties The Beantown Bambino Last edited by Painmantle; 03-29-2017 at 09:55 PM.

03-29-2017, 10:38 PM	#13
actionjackson Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 6,163	I think this is the kind of stuff you're looking for sbr036, at least based on your OP and the best hitter going in the #2 slot.

03-30-2017, 03:29 PM	#16
mmarra82 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 310	Two good reads about optimizing your lineup: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/200...your-lineup-by http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/are-l...ore-optimized/

03-30-2017, 03:59 PM	#17
slugger922cubs Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 314	Unless you want to play a speed game dont overvalue speed at lead off. Its more important imo that the leadoff guy gets OBP as much as possible. If hes got a little pop doubles and leadoff HR will more than offset the in ability to occasionally steal second. The Cubs have occasionally used Rizzo in lead off and plan to have Schwaber lead off often this year. Often speed is more value at the back fo the line up where weaker hitters can leg out extra bases if theyre once the line up rolls back around to the top.

03-30-2017, 05:07 PM	#18
drhay53 Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 355	This is what I do, in this order of selection: 2 - highest OPS 4 - highest SLG remaining 1 - highest OBP remaining 5 - highest SLG remaining 3 - highest OPS remaining 6-9 OPS descending order Technically, I actually select the top 5 hitters by OPS, use them to fill slots 1-5 as shown above, and then fill in 6-9.

03-31-2017, 12:06 PM	#20
Anyone Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 405	1) Best OBP among those that don't slug well enough to hit 3rd or 4th. Speed is a bonus, but not important. 2) Good OBP also, but more balance between OBP and other offensive skills than my leadoff man. I won't use a real power hitter here, though. 3) Usually the best all-around hitter, but definitely a guy with all around offensive skills. I want all of BA/OBP/SLG to be high. I'll accept fewer walks here though and go for BA over OBP sometimes, partly because the #3 hitter leads off innings less often than any other spot. 4) The best power hitter, generally, although he can't just hit home runs and make tons of outs or something. He's sometimes the best overall hitter, if my best power hitter also has good OBP. 5) The best home run hitter who's not batting 3rd or 4th, unless said hitter has really bad OBP. I like walks here somewhat as well as speed, because the #5 hitter leads off more innings than anyone other than the leadoff man. 6) The best hitter not above him. 7) Of the two weakest-hitting nonpitchers, the one with the higher OBP relative to slugging, as a walk when the pitcher is due up has less value. 8) The reverse among the two weakest-hitting nonpitchers. More SLG relative to OBP, drive the runners in before the pitcher comes up. 9) The pitcher, because I don't play with the DH and haven't come around to the sabermetric fad of batting the pitcher 8th. If I did hit the pitcher 8th, I'd bat the guy I currently lead off #9 instead. That might lead to moving everyone else up a spot, but maybe not exactly because what I do is partially based on the #3 guy leading off the fewest innings and the #5 guy most likely to lead off the 2nd. If I used a DH, my #9 hitter would almost literally be the highest in "OBP minus SLG." I'd want someone who might get on base for the better hitters, but because the spot would come up the least I wouldn't want too good of an overall hitter in it.