Does Work Ethic concern you much??

[ForeverRoyalKC]

I was hoping I could get some opinions on the work ethic subject. As I am still drafting my teams, I have found some pretty good players that have rave reviews from scouting except.....work ethic is Low or Very Low. Does that concern you guys very much? Do you take it lightly or by pass them altogether? How much stock do you put into it and do many of them get their act together and get a better work ethic?? This has kept my finger from clicking the Draft Player button at the last moment.

[TGH-Adfabre]

It is a tie breaker with a little more weight. I always take talent, there are enough players with low work ethics that fully develop and/or receive talent bumps.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by ForeverRoyalKC

Does Work Ethic concern you much??

Why no. Not really. I get by very well doing as little as I possibly can. Why do any work when somebody else can do it?

Oh, you mean in the game! Sorry, my bad.

To answer your question, then, it is my firm belief that low work ethic and low intelligence are big handicaps to player development and that it is the exception rather then the rule when you see somebody with low work ethic do well in this game.

You want proof of this? Well, the next time you are conducting a player draft, watch the AI shun players that your scout or OSA thinks are great prospects. "Why is this guy still available?" you say to yourself. Take a look under the hood and you see that he's either lazy, dumb, or both.

This is one of the reverse cheats in this game (coaching is another) in that the AI sees this and unless you are looking closely, you pick a bad apple.

[MrBojangles]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Why no. Not really. I get by very well doing as little as I possibly can. Why do any work when somebody else can do it?

Oh, you mean in the game! Sorry, my bad.

To answer your question, then, it is my firm belief that low work ethic and low intelligence are big handicaps to player development and that it is the exception rather then the rule when you see somebody with low work ethic do well in this game.

You want proof of this? Well, the next time you are conducting a player draft, watch the AI shun players that your scout or OSA thinks are great prospects. "Why is this guy still available?" you say to yourself. Take a look under the hood and you see that he's either lazy, dumb, or both.

This is one of the reverse cheats in this game (coaching is another) in that the AI sees this and unless you are looking closely, you pick a bad apple.

I agree all day long. I also find that strong work ethic often, though not always, is found with other positive attributes. When you consistently draft with work ethic as a high consideration, and get the other positive attributes as a bonus, you get to avoid the morale issues that we so often see talked about on these boards.

[Number4]

Also remember who you are drafting. You might treat the draft as a way to get that next Mike Trout, but especially in the later rounds the draft is a way to get a cheap team-controlled backup catcher, utility infielder, 4th outfielder, 5th starter, long reliever and so on. The kind of guys that you really don't want to be lazy or other kinds of clubhouse bad. For me, a guy would need to be significantly better than his peers to draft him despite him being lazy.

[zappa1]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Why no. Not really. I get by very well doing as little as I possibly can. Why do any work when somebody else can do it?

Oh, you mean in the game! Sorry, my bad.

To answer your question, then, it is my firm belief that low work ethic and low intelligence are big handicaps to player development and that it is the exception rather then the rule when you see somebody with low work ethic do well in this game.

You want proof of this? Well, the next time you are conducting a player draft, watch the AI shun players that your scout or OSA thinks are great prospects. "Why is this guy still available?" you say to yourself. Take a look under the hood and you see that he's either lazy, dumb, or both.

This is one of the reverse cheats in this game (coaching is another) in that the AI sees this and unless you are looking closely, you pick a bad apple.

Reminds me of a quote from the game by Al Dark. Something like,

There's a lot of dumb players in this league. Some of these dumb players can hit a ball a long ways. lol

[GoPedro99]

One of my biggest factors. High WE=greater chance of development

[ThePretender]

Depends on their overalls during the draft. It's a tiebreaker, but I won't ignore a talented guy cause of low work ethic. I see just as many guys with high work ethic fail as the ones with low work ethic.

[NoOne]

useful info when drafting or trading for undeveloped talent for sure. used more within tiers of talent - like players you'd be willing to take inthe first round, or maybe in the 3-4th rounds etc.

it is also important again when dealing with developed players aged 28-30+. i'm definitely less likely to sign those guys into their 30's. my goal will generally be to trade them for value before they take a dip or avoid them when looking for trade partners. i plan contracts around this, when possible... e.g. a couple 'extra' years that i never intend to have them on my team, or if i know i won't be able to trade them, i plan for a compensation draft pick - no extra years for those types... the end of their contract should avoid aging effects of significance and no thought of extension.

[ForeverRoyalKC]

Thanks for the input, folks! I am currently sitting at pick #245 and hope to finish early this coming week. Being this late in the draft, you can see the validity for the question. There are those hidden gems and when I see that low to very low work ethic, I grit my teeth.

[r0nster]

Lou Whitaker was well known for being on the lazy side allowing his talent to do its thing while at same time alan Trammell would work hard to always push himself to be better than himself in an effort to be among the best and it rewarded the team.
coaching helps more with players who want to be better

Point is player ethics do play a role in development of player with some influence by coach especially in real life

[ihatenames]

I use it as for of tiebreaker. If all things are close to equal I'll take the player with the better attitude. However, team need trumps mental ratings for me.

[FlaviusFlav]

I'm not sure if it actually works, but outside of your stud prospects, your minor league system is bound to be full of a bunch of next to 0 potential innings eaters.

I've started taking the approach of trying to make sure my never-going-to-touch-the-majors minor league filler are spectacular human beings with strong leadership and work ethic and low greed, in hopes that this would somehow positively affect the clubhouse and influence the development of my actual prospects.

Before this I've noticed that I'l have an entire minor league team with that super angry red faced morale due to having too many slackers on the team, or some other attitude related complaint.

[zukes]

I actually use this as a guide on who to draft, or sign as minor leaguers. I rarely, if ever, take on anyone who is less than "average" in work ethic.

Intelligence and greed matter next to me. I will take a greedy guy and I will take a dumb guy, but I will not take a greedy, dumb guy unless his work ethic is off the charts.

I constantly look at young guys whose potential is high on the free agent list and see that they have low work ethic and pass on them.

For veterans, I am a little less concerned on work ethic, but if they are low, they at least better not be a jerk in the clubhouse.

I love how these ratings change over time. It actually fuels me to trade away guys that over time change and become potential problems.

One of my favourite aspects of this game.

[NoOne]

the best way to understand "work ethic" or any other personality trait... as well as coaching and morale... is to turn them off and play without them until you undestand a normal baseline without their effects. when you turn them back on many will see they don't do nearly as much as you might think. they can still be important to consider, but just with significantly less weight associated with them.

you'll essentially learn 100/200 work ethic (and others), based on how it describes turning them on and off in the manual.

so, all the things you see normally happening with it turned off will continue to happen when you turn it on, except it will now be influenced by the work ethic rating. it's not likely going to be a huge difference..

same with enabling morale or the full coaching system resulting effects... if you get worried when you get those emails.. try turning morale off and see how your results are any different... likely not noticeable with the human eye - that doesn't mean you should ignore it, but merely put it in proper perspective.

use a restored league you can throw away. learning how scouting inaccuracy works is a good idea too. you can learn this as you play, but it will take alot more time and you'll be fooled by other effects masking what you are trying to learn. in a controlled environment you can learn it in a season or two and limit what fools you while learning that one factor.

[MrBojangles]

Originally Posted by NoOne

the best way to understand "work ethic" or any other personality trait... as well as coaching and morale... is to turn them off and play without them until you undestand a normal baseline without their effects. when you turn them back on many will see they don't do nearly as much as you might think. they can still be important to consider, but just with significantly less weight associated with them.

you'll essentially learn 100/200 work ethic (and others), based on how it describes turning them on and off in the manual.

so, all the things you see normally happening with it turned off will continue to happen when you turn it on, except it will now be influenced by the work ethic rating. it's not likely going to be a huge difference..

same with enabling morale or the full coaching system resulting effects... if you get worried when you get those emails.. try turning morale off and see how your results are any different... likely not noticeable with the human eye - that doesn't mean you should ignore it, but merely put it in proper perspective.

use a restored league you can throw away. learning how scouting inaccuracy works is a good idea too. you can learn this as you play, but it will take alot more time and you'll be fooled by other effects masking what you are trying to learn. in a controlled environment you can learn it in a season or two and limit what fools you while learning that one factor.

I take it you've performed these experiments? Is there any quantitative information you can share with us to describe the effects (or relative lack thereof) of personality traits, coaching, etc? I'd be very interested in whatever you can share.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by MrBojangles

I take it you've performed these experiments? Is there any quantitative information you can share with us to describe the effects (or relative lack thereof) of personality traits, coaching, etc? I'd be very interested in whatever you can share.

i've played with these features on and off, sure. i wasn't asking the question about it, though, so i don't see why i would do the tests. i do have a pretty good idea of baseline. it's a bit difficult to impart experience, though.. much easier just to sim a couple seasons and experiement a bit onthe side when bored. fleshing things out is easy to do.

overall it's going to be roughly the same success/fail rate on development, but how it gets there takes a bit more into consideration at each step- but it can't make it veer too far just by common sense. the leagues simply aren't that much different when you turn these things on or off.

i think you are reading this wrong, anyway... the baseline is the key to understanding it. without it you(pl.) simply stab wildly at the air in futility.

the only thing i purport is that it's not a huge effect, and what i've seen in the forums (not just this thread) is that many come to the same conclusion just in different words. no one's picking the lowly rated, yet, high work ethic guy in round 1-2 when there are other better rated players available, even if they have lower work ethics. it's somethign you only apply as a factor when the 2 players are of the same calss. a secondary factor to consider after you've used other more important factors to make a small enough list that work ethic becomes important in the decision.

[Mr. Marlin]

For me Intelligence and Work Ethic become big in the late rounds of the draft when the talent pool is getting depleted. I figure a high rating on those two make it more likely to find that "diamond in the rough" type player. The kind that does not look like much but develops into something since those traits to aid development.

[garion333]

Originally Posted by NoOne

the best way to understand "work ethic" or any other personality trait... as well as coaching and morale... is to turn them off and play without them until you undestand a normal baseline without their effects. when you turn them back on many will see they don't do nearly as much as you might think. they can still be important to consider, but just with significantly less weight associated with them.

you'll essentially learn 100/200 work ethic (and others), based on how it describes turning them on and off in the manual.

so, all the things you see normally happening with it turned off will continue to happen when you turn it on, except it will now be influenced by the work ethic rating. it's not likely going to be a huge difference..

same with enabling morale or the full coaching system resulting effects... if you get worried when you get those emails.. try turning morale off and see how your results are any different... likely not noticeable with the human eye - that doesn't mean you should ignore it, but merely put it in proper perspective.

use a restored league you can throw away. learning how scouting inaccuracy works is a good idea too. you can learn this as you play, but it will take alot more time and you'll be fooled by other effects masking what you are trying to learn. in a controlled environment you can learn it in a season or two and limit what fools you while learning that one factor.

I don't entirely disagree with this, Morale and Work Ethic are basically de/buffs to the underlying sim. You can turn Work Ethic off and the game runs just fine, but you can't turn off Contact and have a working game. Sure, you can hide Contact, but it's still a part of every player.

As such, a de/buff isn't as integral to the sim experience, it should never be what you look at first, it's a secondary or tertiary concern when scouting players. What you're calling not a huge difference makes all the difference when playing in mp with other people who are utilizing all the different angles. Heck, even in sp when you're scouting draft picks later in the draft it's definitely best to get someone with a high Work Ethic since their skills are likely marginal already. This way they'll develop quicker, either into nada or into something, and you can move on to other players sooner.

So, yeah, Morale and Work Ethic aren't where you should start with players, but it's one of the many little things you can use to your advantage to have better teams. And you know damn well in a mp environment there are other humans using these systems to their advantage. You should too.