What the heck?!? Is historical minors even playable? - Page 2

ArcAngel · 11-20-2016, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

In 1919 we wouldn't have the Texas League...
1921, the Pacific Coast players would start arriving.

Only problem with that thinking is that, historically, both leagues were active in 1919 - The TL was a Class B league, while the PCL was Class AA.

David Watts · 11-20-2016, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcAngel

Only problem with that thinking is that, historically, both leagues were active in 1919 - The TL was a Class B league, while the PCL was Class AA.

I know that. But, I don't always like being locked into history when it comes to the leagues I play. Probably one of the reasons I love random debut. Let's say I want to start in 1919, using a 12 team setup, with two 6 team subleagues. Say I don't want to use the Detroit Tigers, but the Detroit Mustangs. Or I want to scrap the New York Yankees in favor to the Buffalo Bears. It would be great if I could set this type of league up and still have access to the minor league players.

I love playing with real players, but often end up using fictional environments.

thehef · 11-20-2016, 06:57 PM

To specifically address the original post, beginning in 1921 OOTP provides enough minor league teams to support at least one affiliate per MLB team. So I think one could simply go into the MiLBTeams.csv file and edit it - changing the Franchise/AffiliationID indicator from "IND" to a major league team ID - to where each MLB team has at least one affiliate. You'd need to do this through 1934 (in 1935, all MLB teams have at least one affiliate), and in 1937, although from 1932-34 and in 1937 the editing would be minimal, as 14 or 15 of the 16 teams have an affiliate in those years.

As far as figuring out which MiLB team to assign to which MLB team, you could assign randomly, or look at upcoming years to assign reasonable affiliations. Or, given this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

If player loans turn out to be impossible another approach could be independent-affiliated teams.

I ran a query last year of all the independent teams and a large number turned out to be de-facto affiliated teams as their rosters were made up largely of players who were on loan from a single MLB franchise in the pre-working agreement days. Perhaps this would be a useful addition?

... perhaps those de-facto affiliations could be used to help fill in the blanks.

At any rate, I haven't tested this. There may be other factors that could make this impossible or more-difficult that I envision.

Spritze · 11-20-2016, 08:13 PM

Be forewarned that there are about 70,000 unused minor league players and their stats available in the OOTP database.

mitchkenn · 11-20-2016, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

To specifically address the original post, beginning in 1921 OOTP provides enough minor league teams to support at least one affiliate per MLB team. So I think one could simply go into the MiLBTeams.csv file and edit it - changing the Franchise/AffiliationID indicator from "IND" to a major league team ID - to where each MLB team has at least one affiliate. You'd need to do this through 1934 (in 1935, all MLB teams have at least one affiliate), and in 1937, although from 1932-34 and in 1937 the editing would be minimal, as 14 or 15 of the 16 teams have an affiliate in those years.......

i like that idea .... maybe Markus and team could put a bit of these ideas into 18 ??????

Spritze · 11-20-2016, 08:58 PM

As even the current OOTP version has really only historical team and league structure but not player assignments it might be possible to adjust the structure away from strict adherence to history toward something a little bit ahistorical but more pleasing to play? Ideas?

mitchkenn · 11-20-2016, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

As even the current OOTP version has really only historical team and league structure but not player assignments it might be possible to adjust the structure away from strict adherence to history toward something a little bit ahistorical but more pleasing to play? Ideas?

teams like Shreveport Sports .... 1924 Phila - A's. associate - class A - and then they were unaffiliated until 1933 when they were with Detroit - class C. Then in 1938 they were unaffiliated again ... somewhere in the 1960's, they got to be a KC affiliate - AA.

not certain how you could associate them with a team by editing the CSV without running into problems. But if you made it semi-historical, maybe the game would not change the 1933 association if done in commish mode? That would have the be a change in the programing i suspect, along the "ahistorical" lines you mention. Then, once we make a team associated, it could stay that way until operator change. Or would that be impossible as well as impractical the way the code is written? Dunno, just an idea.

Le Grande Orange · 11-21-2016, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

I ran a query last year of all the independent teams and a large number turned out to be de-facto affiliated teams as their rosters were made up largely of players who were on loan from a single MLB franchise in the pre-working agreement days.

The nature of the relationship between the majors and minors was not a simple one. Commissioner Landis was dead-set against the farm system, and did everything he could to thwart it, but with limited success—the clubs wanted it too much.

The minors were mostly independent; some would take a few players on option from a major league club, while the rest would sell their best talent to higher-level teams (the Baltimore Orioles of the 1920s are perhaps the best example of this; the International League being Rule 5 draft exempt helped). An interesting twist in the working agreements prior to 1932 was that the number of players the major league club could select from the minor league club counted against the major league team's reserve limit, even though they weren't yet chosen by the ML team. This is what limited working agreements. (Outright ownership of a minor league club was another matter; in that case the ML team could sell/buy players to/from its minor league outfit as it wished.)

In December of 1931, due to the effects of the Depression, the working agreement was changed so that the number of players to be selected from the minor league club no longer counted against the ML team's reserve limit until they were actually named. This is what helped affiliations grow, along with minor league teams desperately needing the cash infusion a working agreement promised.

Lukas Berger · 11-21-2016, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

To specifically address the original post, beginning in 1921 OOTP provides enough minor league teams to support at least one affiliate per MLB team. So I think one could simply go into the MiLBTeams.csv file and edit it - changing the Franchise/AffiliationID indicator from "IND" to a major league team ID - to where each MLB team has at least one affiliate. You'd need to do this through 1934 (in 1935, all MLB teams have at least one affiliate), and in 1937, although from 1932-34 and in 1937 the editing would be minimal, as 14 or 15 of the 16 teams have an affiliate in those years.

As far as figuring out which MiLB team to assign to which MLB team, you could assign randomly, or look at upcoming years to assign reasonable affiliations. Or, given this...

... perhaps those de-facto affiliations could be used to help fill in the blanks.

At any rate, I haven't tested this. There may be other factors that could make this impossible or more-difficult that I envision.

Post of the thread. Great take, excellent advice.

mitchkenn · 11-21-2016, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Post of the thread. Great take, excellent advice.

does this mean it COULD work? in 17 or at least 18? Some ideas anyway and fingers crossed.

David Watts · 11-21-2016, 10:52 AM

Has the Jim Unknown issue been dealt with yet?

Lukas Berger · 11-21-2016, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

does this mean it COULD work? in 17 or at least 18? Some ideas anyway and fingers crossed.

I don't see any reason it couldn't but Spritze is the expert here so you'd want to get his opinion more than mine.

I could be wrong, it's happened before and will happen again

mitchkenn · 11-21-2016, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I don't see any reason it couldn't but Spritze is the expert here so you'd want to get his opinion more than mine.

I could be wrong, it's happened before and will happen again

say it ain't so, Joe ....

anyway - was giving this some thought ... dangerous thing i know .... but if you edited the csv for every year and team ahead of each season, then wouldn't the game just follow that path? so the changes in association wouldn't actually happen? will wait until Spritze weighs in, or when i get a few free days, may just set up a test league, but won't be this week .... big question still is - when a minor league team no longer exists, what will happen to those players? Go to other minors, or FA? hmmmmm....

thanks for the reply though .... lots more hope in the trenches now.

Lukas Berger · 11-21-2016, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

but if you edited the csv for every year and team ahead of each season, then wouldn't the game just follow that path?

I would think so.

Spritze · 11-21-2016, 01:00 PM

AFAIK at the moment the game follows the pre-recorded structure in the ODB file not the CSV'S.

Lukas Berger · 11-21-2016, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

AFAIK at the moment the game follows the pre-recorded structure in the ODB file not the CSV'S.

Oh, ok that makes sense.

Spritze · 11-21-2016, 02:05 PM

Getting back to the "where did they go" question IRL the Pirates loaned out 22 players (those who eventually made the majors with them) in 1931. They all played with Independent teams that year. 13 different ones. Since those players came back to the Pirates I have to assume they were funded by the Pirates even though they played elsewhere. They probably loaned out more than 22 but I only tracked those who made their big league debut later with the Pirates.

mitchkenn · 11-21-2016, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

AFAIK at the moment the game follows the pre-recorded structure in the ODB file not the CSV'S.

dang nab it. then the csv editing idea won't work ..... hmmmmm .... back to the drawing board and manually keeping track of team affiliation demise dates. only hope, i guess, is Markus and team changes something in 18 to allow a work around of some sort. Thanks for the info though.

thehef · 11-21-2016, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

dang nab it. then the csv editing idea won't work ..... hmmmmm .... back to the drawing board and manually keeping track of team affiliation demise dates. only hope, i guess, is Markus and team changes something in 18 to allow a work around of some sort. Thanks for the info though.

Editing the csv's does "work" for adding additional independent leagues. I put quotes around work because I have run into issues with league totals; with tweaks is does work, though. So the main point is that if you edit the csv's, the game does in fact read from them.

If anyone wants to test it out, the attached includes a MiLBTeams,csv file that has at least one affiliate for every MLB team, beginning in 1921. (The file does not include any MiLB teams after 1945; I did this so the file would be small enough so as to not exceed forum file size limits.)

I didn't spend much time figuring out what affiliate should go with what team; it's only for testing... To test you would need to replace the MiLBTeams.csv file in your ...\Documents\Out of the Park Developments\OOTP Baseball 17\stats folder with the file in the attached. First rename your original MiLBTeams.csv file to something like MiLBTeams-original.csv, and then rename the attached to MiLBTeams.csv... I would recommend starting several years prior to 1921 in order to build up a bunch of reserve players (who will eventually go to affiliates) and minor-league free agents...

Added: I do plan to test it myself. Just not sure when I'll get to it, and perhaps someone will want to beat me to it.

mitchkenn · 11-21-2016, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

Editing the csv's does "work" for adding additional independent leagues. I put quotes around work because I have run into issues with league totals; with tweaks is does work, though. So the main point is that if you edit the csv's, the game does in fact read from them.

If anyone wants to test it out, the attached includes a MiLBTeams,csv file that has at least one affiliate for every MLB team, beginning in 1921. (The file does not include any MiLB teams after 1945; I did this so the file would be small enough so as to not exceed forum file size limits.)

I didn't spend much time figuring out what affiliate should go with what team; it's only for testing... To test you would need to replace the MiLBTeams.csv file in your ...\Documents\Out of the Park Developments\OOTP Baseball 17\stats folder with the file in the attached. First rename your original MiLBTeams.csv file to something like MiLBTeams-original.csv, and then rename the attached to MiLBTeams.csv... I would recommend starting several years prior to 1921 in order to build up a bunch of reserve players (who will eventually go to affiliates) and minor-league free agents...

Added: I do plan to test it myself. Just not sure when I'll get to it, and perhaps someone will want to beat me to it.

thanks. i looked at the CSV files earlier today in my game and relaized the need to change the original files name. But good heads up in case i (or someone else) may have missed that!

i didn't look too far past the mid 20's, but your list is impressive, if for nothing else a tutorial.

do i understand it right, that the game will still create it's own minors, and the IND changed ones will also be recognized. If so - WOW!!!! i'll give it a look when i get a few days off, and time to tinker with it seriously. Again, great hope and thanks for taking the time to create that file.

EDIT: had a free couple of hours this evening, created a new Test League and loaded your CSV file (used 1922 thru 1925).... seems about half the teams loaded with minors and half didn't - even though in the csv file they all had associations. Tinkered with the default file (did save the original under new name) ... and pretty much the same thing ..... however, when i went to the Teams/affiliation settings in the game and added a team to the PLC or Texas League .... they showed up in the game. But when i saved the data and quit the game, nothing changed in the CSV file (maybe it doesn't save there ????,) so i don't know how long the associations would work. i moved ahead into 1925 and the ones i changed in game were still active. Hmmmmm...... dunno what to think at this point. More experimenting on the horizon it looks.

11-20-2016, 08:13 PM	#24
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Be forewarned that there are about 70,000 unused minor league players and their stats available in the OOTP database. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

11-20-2016, 08:58 PM	#26
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	As even the current OOTP version has really only historical team and league structure but not player assignments it might be possible to adjust the structure away from strict adherence to history toward something a little bit ahistorical but more pleasing to play? Ideas? __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

11-21-2016, 10:52 AM	#31
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,796 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Has the Jim Unknown issue been dealt with yet? Last edited by David Watts; 11-21-2016 at 10:53 AM.

11-21-2016, 01:00 PM	#35
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	AFAIK at the moment the game follows the pre-recorded structure in the ODB file not the CSV'S. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

11-21-2016, 02:05 PM	#37
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Getting back to the "where did they go" question IRL the Pirates loaned out 22 players (those who eventually made the majors with them) in 1931. They all played with Independent teams that year. 13 different ones. Since those players came back to the Pirates I have to assume they were funded by the Pirates even though they played elsewhere. They probably loaned out more than 22 but I only tracked those who made their big league debut later with the Pirates. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!