So Mike Trout wins the AL MVP.....

Cobra Mgr · 11-18-2016, 09:27 AM

Erik W. · 11-18-2016, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

You've certainly provided excellent analysis, but I'm curious who you think should have won.

Cobra Mgr · 11-18-2016, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik W.

You've certainly provided excellent analysis, but I'm curious who you think should have won.

Someone who was on a better team than 77-84.

Mike Trout the most talented player in MLB? I won't argue against that.

But he never wins. So he can't be most valuable.

Sabermetrics has continued to make winning the most undervalued statistic in sports.

actionjackson · 11-18-2016, 07:20 PM

TheMaus2 · 11-18-2016, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Someone who was on a better team than 77-84.

Mike Trout the most talented player in MLB? I won't argue against that.

But he never wins. So he can't be most valuable.

Sabermetrics has continued to make winning the most undervalued statistic in sports.

Is it though? WAR wise he's the best. What about the other players? What kind of supporting cast did they have?

RchW · 11-18-2016, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Someone who was on a better team than 77-84.

Someone on a better team could not possibly be more valuable because they had more help than Trout. He should have won in Miggy's triple crown season because he was clearly more valuable. He should have won in 2012 because LAA had a better record in a tougher division (check second half stats and division strength). He's been the best player in baseball for 4 seasons and gets downgraded because of boredom or hypnosis or something.

Cobra Mgr · 11-18-2016, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaus2

Is it though? WAR wise he's the best. What about the other players? What kind of supporting cast did they have?

The myth of WAR is that it isn't subjective. It's every bit as subjective as the error. If there isn't a consensus on how to calculate it, then how can there be a consensus that it is THE stat to determine a player's worth? I love the attempt, I truly do. But it's importance is overrated. People quote it like it is the beat all that ends all. I don't go to that school. If Trout was so valuable, he would have meaningful at bats in September. WAR isn't telling us that. Somewhere, somehow, actual wins has to be put into the equation, IMO. So yeah, I roll my eyes at baseball de-emphasizing team success for the glory of the individual stat sheet stuffer.

RchW · 11-18-2016, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

If Trout was so valuable, he would have meaningful at bats in September.

So a marginal major league player hitting 0.150 hits a HR in September because he happens to be on the Cubs or Indians or Boston is more valuable?

Yeah right.

TribeFanInNC · 11-18-2016, 08:48 PM

Cobra, you have to be kidding me. There was 1 player in all of baseball within 3 WAR of Mike Trout and nobody closer than 1 WAR.

10.6 WAR is tied for 113th best season EVER. In all of baseball history. Probably hundreds of thousands of player seasons and his is the 113th best. He's tied with horrible players like Barry Bonds and Ted Williams and Willie Mays and Roger Clemens.

But yeah, the best pitcher on his team was Matt Shoemaker, so he shouldn't win the MVP.

TheMaus2 · 11-18-2016, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

The myth of WAR is that it isn't subjective. It's every bit as subjective as the error. If there isn't a consensus on how to calculate it, then how can there be a consensus that it is THE stat to determine a player's worth? I love the attempt, I truly do. But it's importance is overrated. People quote it like it is the beat all that ends all. I don't go to that school. If Trout was so valuable, he would have meaningful at bats in September. WAR isn't telling us that. Somewhere, somehow, actual wins has to be put into the equation, IMO. So yeah, I roll my eyes at baseball de-emphasizing team success for the glory of the individual stat sheet stuffer.

Led MLB in OPS+.
2nd in OPS (.031 away from Ortiz)
Led MLB Offensive W% (.800)
He leads in every single Win Probability Metric.
No one comes close.
But, he was on a team whose GM has no vision, so he shouldn't get it.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

TheMaus2 · 11-18-2016, 09:24 PM

Another way to put it.

Cobra Mgr · 11-19-2016, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

So a marginal major league player hitting 0.150 hits a HR in September because he happens to be on the Cubs or Indians or Boston is more valuable?

Yeah right.

I wasn't suggesting that & you know it.

Cobra Mgr · 11-19-2016, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaus2

Led MLB in OPS+.
2nd in OPS (.031 away from Ortiz)
Led MLB Offensive W% (.800)
He leads in every single Win Probability Metric.
No one comes close.
But, he was on a team whose GM has no vision, so he shouldn't get it.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And his team was in 4th place in a 5 team division.

Lukas Berger · 11-19-2016, 09:02 AM

What does 'valuable' have to do with winning?

If Trout gained say 12 wins for the Angels and the next best player gained his team say 10 wins, Trout's still "most valuable" to his team, even if the team wasn't winning.

You're not even proposing the award go to the 'most valuable' player but you're basically proposing an entirely new award, 'best player on a playoff team'. Almost like a hybrid team/player award.

Which is fine, that's your prerogative, but I don't think you'll find a lot of support for making the MVP award into something like that.

TheMaus2 · 11-19-2016, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

And his team was in 4th place in a 5 team division.

We've already determined that.
Goldschmidt is another man who is great but isn't on a great team.

actionjackson · 11-19-2016, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

The myth of WAR is that it isn't subjective. It's every bit as subjective as the error. If there isn't a consensus on how to calculate it, then how can there be a consensus that it is THE stat to determine a player's worth? I love the attempt, I truly do. But it's importance is overrated. People quote it like it is the beat all that ends all. I don't go to that school. If Trout was so valuable, he would have meaningful at bats in September. WAR isn't telling us that. Somewhere, somehow, actual wins has to be put into the equation, IMO. So yeah, I roll my eyes at baseball de-emphasizing team success for the glory of the individual stat sheet stuffer.

fWAR, bWAR, WPA, REW. Which stat do you want? He led them all. Also R, BB, OBP, OPS+, and wRC+. In MLB, there is Mike Trout, and then there's everybody else, and there's really no arguing this. I'm glad the BBWAA finally saw fit to give him another MVP award despite the fact that he was surrounded by garbage on the position player side (Kole Calhoun aside), and Matt Shoemaker was the best pitcher on the team, until he got hit in the head by a line drive.

Also, Mike Trout had a huge impact on the pennant race. He almost singlehandedly beat my Blue Jays in 4 out of 7 ultra meaningful games down the stretch, and I'm sure there were teams in the AL West whose playoff chances he damaged down the stretch. I'm sure the Mariners, and Astros would looove not to have to face the Angels 19 times a year because of #27, and both teams might've made it this year had it not been for Trout. He nearly singlehandedly affected the outcome of several pennant races this year. If that's not valuable, I don't know what is.

Matt Arnold · 11-19-2016, 10:11 AM

I do think if it's close, the guy on the playoff team probably deserves it more. Last year, Trout was only marginally ahead of Donaldson, but because of the playoffs, I don't think anyone really has a problem with Donaldson.

But this year, it wasn't particularly close overall. So in that case, you give it to the best player.

TheMaus2 · 11-19-2016, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjackson

ftfy.
A lot of people are going to disagree with you.

Cobra Mgr · 11-19-2016, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjackson

fWAR, bWAR, WPA, REW. Which stat do you want?

I told you. 77-84, 4th place

Cobra Mgr · 11-19-2016, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaus2

We've already determined that.
Goldschmidt is another man who is great but isn't on a great team.

Never once claimed Trout wasn't great. My opinion is that a player on a losing team has not earned the MVP. POY? Ok. But not MVP.

There is not another team sport that gives it's MVP to a team that doesn't make the playoffs.

11-18-2016, 09:27 AM	#1
Cobra Mgr Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Parts unknown Posts: 7,981	So Mike Trout wins the AL MVP..... <insert eye roll here> __________________ If a man is guilty 4 what goes on inside of his mind, then let me get the electric chair 4 all my future crimes. - Prince Batdance June 7, 1958 - Apr 21, 2016

11-18-2016, 09:24 PM	#11
TheMaus2 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: The OOTP Forums. Always. Posts: 1,952	Another way to put it. __________________ I write a monthly newsletter on the Food Baseball Association. I also listen to music no one's ever heard of in hopes of looking cool and alternative.

11-19-2016, 09:02 AM	#14
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 21,193	What does 'valuable' have to do with winning? If Trout gained say 12 wins for the Angels and the next best player gained his team say 10 wins, Trout's still "most valuable" to his team, even if the team wasn't winning. You're not even proposing the award go to the 'most valuable' player but you're basically proposing an entirely new award, 'best player on a playoff team'. Almost like a hybrid team/player award. Which is fine, that's your prerogative, but I don't think you'll find a lot of support for making the MVP award into something like that. __________________ lukas@ootpdevelopments.com PreOrder Out of the Park Baseball 26! Need to upload files for us to check out? Instructions can be found here

11-18-2016, 07:20 PM	#4
actionjackson Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 6,163	<insert eye roll at this whole topic because Mike Trout is clearly the most valuable player in baseball period>

11-18-2016, 08:48 PM	#9
TribeFanInNC Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,019	Cobra, you have to be kidding me. There was 1 player in all of baseball within 3 WAR of Mike Trout and nobody closer than 1 WAR. 10.6 WAR is tied for 113th best season EVER. In all of baseball history. Probably hundreds of thousands of player seasons and his is the 113th best. He's tied with horrible players like Barry Bonds and Ted Williams and Willie Mays and Roger Clemens. But yeah, the best pitcher on his team was Matt Shoemaker, so he shouldn't win the MVP.

11-19-2016, 10:11 AM	#17
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,680	I do think if it's close, the guy on the playoff team probably deserves it more. Last year, Trout was only marginally ahead of Donaldson, but because of the playoffs, I don't think anyone really has a problem with Donaldson. But this year, it wasn't particularly close overall. So in that case, you give it to the best player.