Clemens clearly needn't retire

sixto · 08-20-2003, 05:51 PM

Maybe the guy wants to spend some time with his kids. Other than that, he's leading or nearly leading the AL in Ks, is averaging under a H per IP, and still has great control.

A part of me says yes, go out while you're still a top dog, don't pull a Carlton. And his reputation is already suffering without cause, just because the media have decided he's old, and that phenomenon is to the point where many probably don't realize his stats are all there because all the media ever say is "Clemens is old." The circus over the 300th win did Clemens more harm than good, really.

But I keep looking at the guy and saying, you're in better shape than Pedro Martinez. Stick it out, give us a nice 22, 23-season career to look back on.

draven085 · 08-20-2003, 05:57 PM

I don't believe he'll retire after this year....not for a minute.

Draft Dodger · 08-20-2003, 06:02 PM

I hate him

Carlton · 08-20-2003, 06:07 PM

hate him or love him DD

But he does have the staying power of Nolan Ryan.

Ironic, but if you think logically, shouldn't strikeout pitchers "flame" out before control pitchers?

But guys like Ryan, Clemens, Randy Johnson...just keep coming

Gastric ReFlux · 08-20-2003, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Carlton
hate him or love him DD

But he does have the staying power of Nolan Ryan.

Ironic, but if you think logically, shouldn't strikeout pitchers "flame" out before control pitchers?

Nope. When a pitcher falls below a critical level of strikeouts per innings pitched, then comes retirement.

LivnLegend · 08-20-2003, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by draven085
I don't believe he'll retire after this year....not for a minute.

I have suspected this most of this year. Around the All Star game, when some people were upset he was not initially chosen for his final appearance I thought, "So what? Add him to the All Star team during his next 'final season' in 2004."

Jason Moyer · 08-20-2003, 06:26 PM

I love Clemens but he should retire. He hasn't had a Clemens-caliber season since he left the Blue Jays.

Jason

Skipaway · 08-20-2003, 09:47 PM

I think it's just a plot for Clemens to hoax more money from the Yankees or the Rangers. More money to "get him out of retirement".

bsbll_n_mn · 08-20-2003, 09:52 PM

he said he wanted to play for the US team, which makes me believe he will retire

and i hate him too

he threw at Mike Piazza on purpose and then through a bat at him

Maze&Blue · 08-20-2003, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
I love Clemens but he should retire. He hasn't had a Clemens-caliber season since he left the Blue Jays.

Jason

2001- 20-3, 220IP..213/72 K/BB.. 3.51 ERA..

Thats pretty Clemens caliber...

True the ERA was pretty high (for clemens) but 20-3 is hard to argue with, Yankees or not

Dwolfson20 · 08-20-2003, 10:40 PM

I haven't ever thought he was actually going to retire either.

Jason Moyer · 08-20-2003, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maze&Blue
True the ERA was pretty high (for clemens) but 20-3 is hard to argue with, Yankees or not

He could have gone 20-3 with a 5.00 ERA that year, considering how amazing the Yankees offense was all things adjusted for.

The sad thing is, he won the Cy Young and he wasn't the best pitcher on his own team.

I was being a bit harsh saying he should retire, he's still good enough to be a solid #3 starter on a contender or a #2 on anyone else. He's just not the best pitcher in baseball anymore, as he was from 1986 to 1998.

Jason

Maze&Blue · 08-20-2003, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
He could have gone 20-3 with a 5.00 ERA that year, considering how amazing the Yankees offense was all things adjusted for.

The sad thing is, he won the Cy Young and he wasn't the best pitcher on his own team.

I was being a bit harsh saying he should retire, he's still good enough to be a solid #3 starter on a contender or a #2 on anyone else. He's just not the best pitcher in baseball anymore, as he was from 1986 to 1998.

Jason

He would have won 15 on most teams that year...lost like 10 but still solid in my book.

I was just responding to you making it sound like hes a chump now

Yes I would agree his best days are behind him, but as you said hes a solid middle of the rotation starter right now and is a guy that can still help a team into the playoffs (not that the bankees need any help)

crackpott · 08-21-2003, 01:58 AM

If you're wondering his record without run support...

http://www.birdsinthebelfry.com/neutral_wins.htm

...when he'd go 14-9 on an average team, I somehow doubt he'd win 15 on "most" that year.

CommishJoe · 08-21-2003, 09:14 AM

I would expect him to retire and play for the Olympic team.

Jason Moyer · 08-21-2003, 09:24 AM

Clemens ERA+ his last 4 years in Boston (when he was supposedly not giving 100%....riiiight):

93 - 105
94 - 177
95 - 115
96 - 142

His ERA+ his first 4 seasons with the Yanks:

99 - 97
00 - 137
01 - 128
02 - 101

Win Shares available upon request.

Jason

Maze&Blue · 08-21-2003, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
Clemens ERA+ his last 4 years in Boston (when he was supposedly not giving 100%....riiiight):

93 - 105
94 - 177
95 - 115
96 - 142

His ERA+ his first 4 seasons with the Yanks:

99 - 97
00 - 137
01 - 128
02 - 101

Win Shares available upon request.

Jason

I feel dumb but I've never heard of ERA+

Yea I shouldn't have said most teams.... I meant an "average" team but I type to fast alot.

And comeone hes got clutch ability and experience

holyroller · 08-21-2003, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maze&Blue
And comeone hes got clutch ability and experience

Come one, come all, witness the mystical clutch ability and veteran experience of Roger Clemens.

Jason Moyer · 08-21-2003, 10:15 AM

ERA+ is your ERA compared to the average ERA for your league, adjusted for your home park.

I was bored so I dug up win shares for the above seasons:

93 11
94 16
95 10
96 20

99 10
00 16
01 19
02 11

Essentially he was worth 1 more win share his last 4 years in Boston than he was his first 4 in New York, and in 2 of those seasons he missed half his starts.

Jason

Maze&Blue · 08-21-2003, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
ERA+ is your ERA compared to the average ERA for your league, adjusted for your home park.

Jason

So I take it the lower the # the better?

Oh and I forgot about all his intensity and winning attitude.

08-20-2003, 05:51 PM	#1
sixto Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,277	Clemens clearly needn't retire Maybe the guy wants to spend some time with his kids. Other than that, he's leading or nearly leading the AL in Ks, is averaging under a H per IP, and still has great control. A part of me says yes, go out while you're still a top dog, don't pull a Carlton. And his reputation is already suffering without cause, just because the media have decided he's old, and that phenomenon is to the point where many probably don't realize his stats are all there because all the media ever say is "Clemens is old." The circus over the 300th win did Clemens more harm than good, really. But I keep looking at the guy and saying, you're in better shape than Pedro Martinez. Stick it out, give us a nice 22, 23-season career to look back on.

08-20-2003, 06:07 PM	#4
Carlton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,765	hate him or love him DD But he does have the staying power of Nolan Ryan. Ironic, but if you think logically, shouldn't strikeout pitchers "flame" out before control pitchers? But guys like Ryan, Clemens, Randy Johnson...just keep coming __________________ "I am at that stage of my life where I keep myself out of arguments. I am 100% self sufficient spiritually, emotionally & financially. Even if you say 1+1=5, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Enjoy!"

08-20-2003, 06:26 PM	#7
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,111	I love Clemens but he should retire. He hasn't had a Clemens-caliber season since he left the Blue Jays. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

08-20-2003, 09:47 PM	#8
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	I think it's just a plot for Clemens to hoax more money from the Yankees or the Rangers. More money to "get him out of retirement". __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

08-20-2003, 10:40 PM	#11
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	I haven't ever thought he was actually going to retire either. __________________

08-20-2003, 05:57 PM	#2
draven085 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,074	I don't believe he'll retire after this year....not for a minute.

08-20-2003, 06:02 PM	#3
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	I hate him __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

08-20-2003, 09:52 PM	#9
bsbll_n_mn Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 593	he said he wanted to play for the US team, which makes me believe he will retire and i hate him too he threw at Mike Piazza on purpose and then through a bat at him

08-21-2003, 01:58 AM	#14
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	If you're wondering his record without run support... http://www.birdsinthebelfry.com/neutral_wins.htm ...when he'd go 14-9 on an average team, I somehow doubt he'd win 15 on "most" that year. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

08-21-2003, 09:14 AM	#15
CommishJoe Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 5,238	I would expect him to retire and play for the Olympic team. __________________ Joe Success isn’t owned. It’s leased. And rent is due every day.

08-21-2003, 09:24 AM	#16
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,111	Clemens ERA+ his last 4 years in Boston (when he was supposedly not giving 100%....riiiight): 93 - 105 94 - 177 95 - 115 96 - 142 His ERA+ his first 4 seasons with the Yanks: 99 - 97 00 - 137 01 - 128 02 - 101 Win Shares available upon request. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

08-21-2003, 10:15 AM	#19
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,111	ERA+ is your ERA compared to the average ERA for your league, adjusted for your home park. I was bored so I dug up win shares for the above seasons: 93 11 94 16 95 10 96 20 99 10 00 16 01 19 02 11 Essentially he was worth 1 more win share his last 4 years in Boston than he was his first 4 in New York, and in 2 of those seasons he missed half his starts. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech