Who would you want starting in Right Field? - Page 5

Jason Moyer · 08-20-2003, 08:55 PM

I'd rather have Bobby Abreu, Andruw Jones, Barry Bonds, Jim Thome, Marcus Giles, Scott Rolen, Alex Rodriguez and no money than Ichiro, Jones, Bonds, Thome, Giles, Rolen, A Rod and $6 million.

Jason

EagleEye_0 · 08-20-2003, 09:00 PM

I dont see that as a valid argument, there are more than two teams in MLB, are there not. Obviously you cant have 8 all-stars on your team. Your going to have some weaker players and that 14 million can be of great use to improving your team.

Maze&Blue · 08-20-2003, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EagleEye_0
I dont see that as a valid argument, there are more than two teams in MLB, are there not. Obviously you cant have 8 all-stars on your team. Your going to have some weaker players and that 14 million can be of great use to improving your team.

Sure ya can, didnt seattle have like 7 2 years ago?

EagleEye_0 · 08-20-2003, 09:40 PM

ok, you cant have 8 of the 16 most talented players in the league on one team, will that work?

Skipaway · 08-20-2003, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
It's interesting how some of the comments in this thread:
(1) ESPN doesn't know what it is talking about, saying that Ichiro is MVP material, etc.! Isn't ports Network? By definition, doesn't that make them the authority on such things? Sure they are not always right but.....
(3) Statistics used to show Abreu is as good as or better than Ichiro.....Well aren't statistics used to chose MVPs? Ichiro has an MVP, how many does Abreu have?

This thread kind of mirrors the debate about what is an MVP. Is an MVP the player with the best stats? Or the player with the most significant impact on his team?

You definitely didn't really check the stats before saying Abreu is better than Ichiro in the sense of MVP voting.

In 2001, Giambi lead AL in win shares at 39. Ichiro was at 37. The Ichiro choice was not unreasonable if you go ask Bill James. There are also some other stats not supporting the selection as much as Win Shares, but at least you can make a case. Abreu was never even close. Blame Bonds for that.

Dwolfson20 · 08-20-2003, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
It's interesting how some of the comments in this thread:
(1) ESPN doesn't know what it is talking about, saying that Ichiro is MVP material, etc.! Isn't ports Network? By definition, doesn't that make them the authority on such things? Sure they are not always right but.....
(2) Ichiro makes allot less money so he is better to have...etc...This thread was purely about the players talents not finances! I am still of the opinion that Ichiro is a more talented player than Abreu.
(3) Statistics used to show Abreu is as good as or better than Ichiro.....Well aren't statistics used to chose MVPs? Ichiro has an MVP, how many does Abreu have?
(4) Intagibles are so much nonsense......So are opinions, or so it seems, but look at all the "knowledgable" commentators on ESPN or Fox and many times they agree or disagree, sometimes they even mention these intangibles, such as a winning attitude or a competetive nature or a clubhouse leader! Those are intangibles!

1) No, it makes them no such thing. It makes them a bunch of guys with opinions who just happen to get TV access.

2) Maybe that's what you meant, but you phrased the question poorly. You should have just asked which one was a better player. As for your opinion, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one.

3) You're using circular logic and making a big assumption. Most voters actually don't go by statistics when choosing an MVP. See last year's race. Ideally, it would be based only on stats, but that's not the way it is. So you can't justify Ichiro's MVP with that reasoning.

4) See #1... if some washed-up former player talks about intangibles on TV, that doesn't make them correct. Don't believe everything you hear.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan

This thread kind of mirrors the debate about what is an MVP. Is an MVP the player with the best stats? Or the player with the most significant impact on his team?

Those are one and the same.

Skipaway · 08-21-2003, 01:29 AM

I have to say it again, the averages over 2001~2003 of Ichiro and Abreu might look similar, they are not the same.

Ichiro was better than Abreu in 2001, and worse than Abreu in 2002. Abreu enjoyed about the same good years, while Ichiro had a great one in 2001.

For personal glory and award winning, sure a great season + a decent season looks much better than two very good seasons.

Heh, I am not even a Ichiro fan, although my girlfriend is. And I sure believe sabermetrics as much as the next guy.Why am I the one defending Ichiro? It feel like a war against fake statheads. I don't mean defending Abreu to be anything wrong, just some attacks on Ichiro just look stupid.

Jason Moyer · 08-21-2003, 09:36 AM

Hm, Win Shares by season (Abreu first, Ichiro second)

2001 26 36
2002 29 25
2003 23 22

Ichiro has been more valuable by 5 win shares overall (through August 19th) but Abreu has been better in 2 of 3 seasons (so far).

What I see there is Ichiro with an MVP quality season and 2 all-star quality seasons, and Abreu with 3 all-star quality seasons. For the record, Abreu had 3 all-star quality seasons before this as well, with 26, 26, and 23 win shares from 98-00.

Jason

Mariner and Giants Fan · 08-21-2003, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
1) No, it makes them no such thing. It makes them a bunch of guys with opinions who just happen to get TV access.

2) Maybe that's what you meant, but you phrased the question poorly. You should have just asked which one was a better player. As for your opinion, I guess we'll just have to disagree on that one.

3) You're using circular logic and making a big assumption. Most voters actually don't go by statistics when choosing an MVP. See last year's race. Ideally, it would be based only on stats, but that's not the way it is. So you can't justify Ichiro's MVP with that reasoning.

4) See #1... if some washed-up former player talks about intangibles on TV, that doesn't make them correct. Don't believe everything you hear.

You take everything way to literally!
(1) I don't know what society you live in but ESPN is big business and sure they make mistakes at times but they do know their business better than many of the folks on this board. Finally they are paid for the job they perform so I am sorry you are el-wrongo because they are the recognized authority by the majority of sports fans around the world!
(2)Perhaps but it doesn't really matter...
(3)Of course I am to prove my point, that an MVP is usually more talented in the eyes of the professional decision makers. To prove my point I am using the facts, much as a lawyer would do in court. The fact that Ichiro has an MVP (and may have another this year) vs Abreu almost being an unknown would lead most fans to believe that Ichiro is the better player. Say what you want, have any opinion you want, this is a fact (MVP)!
(4)No but it makes you correct when you spout off about stats like Win shares etc? I don't think so. I'll err on the side of the professionals who have played the game or covered the game for a living longer than most of you have been alive.

Hey I am not against anyone having an opinion. That's what is fun about following sports. You can even be a fan of the Cubs, no matter how much they lose. I just never heard much about Abreu out West and even on ESPN or FOX. Yeah he is a good ballplayer, just not in Ichiro's class......yes my opinion!

Those are one and the same.

holyroller · 08-21-2003, 11:51 AM

Mariner and Giants fan, might I suggest that you quit while you are way, way behind.

Mariner and Giants Fan · 08-21-2003, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
Mariner and Giants fan, might I suggest that you quit while you are way, way behind.

Behind? Behind what? The only score I see being kept is 31-21! And I think Ichiro is ahead. Is there really anyone who believes that the majority of knowledgable baseball professionals (re: paid for their opinion) would chose Bobby Abreu over Ichiro?

draven085 · 08-21-2003, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
Behind? Behind what? The only score I see being kept is 31-21! And I think Ichiro is ahead. Is there really anyone who believes that the majority of knowledgable baseball professionals (re: paid for their opinion) would chose Bobby Abreu over Ichiro?

Probably not. But these are the same men that trade for Doug Glanville and Tony Womack, sign Derek Bell, give Kevin Brown a 46 year deal at age 35, etc etc. Just because they are 'professionals' doesn't mean they have some sort of baseball clairvoyance.

The worst part about Ichiro is that he is going to win another MVP this year that he doesn't deserve. He has to be the most over-rated player in the game next to Jeter.

Mariner and Giants Fan · 08-21-2003, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by draven085
Probably not. But these are the same men that trade for Doug Glanville and Tony Womack, sign Derek Bell, give Kevin Brown a 46 year deal at age 35, etc etc. Just because they are 'professionals' doesn't mean they have some sort of baseball clairvoyance.

The worst part about Ichiro is that he is going to win another MVP this year that he doesn't deserve. He has to be the most over-rated player in the game next to Jeter.

Are you never wrong? How many great trades do "they" make? How many wunderkinds do they identify? This "they" you are referring to are usually quite hatd working and most times ethical. Well at least they are hard working and they do know their field. Cause when they don't they get fired!

Yes I will even agree that Ichiro is somewhat overrated. But I think that is true for the majority of high profile players. Too bad Abreu isn't one

Jason Moyer · 08-21-2003, 12:43 PM

Being the best player on a playoff team isn't high caliber?

It's funny that Ichiro is getting MVP articles now on ESPN when Boone is having a much better season (and neither really compare at all to Delgado or A Rod).

Jason

Mariner and Giants Fan · 08-21-2003, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
Being the best player on a playoff team isn't high caliber?

It's funny that Ichiro is getting MVP articles now on ESPN when Boone is having a much better season (and neither really compare at all to Delgado or A Rod).

Jason

What you seem to be forgetting is that the MVP almost always comes from a winning team, usually in the playoffs! I am not saying that is the right way to chose this player but just the way it seems to be. Delgado and ARod's teams will not be in the playoffs hence they have little chance, unless they far outstrip th eother players in stats. But didn't ARod do that last year to Tejada? Didn't do much good huh?

Jason Moyer · 08-21-2003, 02:53 PM

Still...

Ichiro over Boone?

Jason

EagleEye_0 · 08-21-2003, 02:58 PM

Jason, I did some looking at the stats and it appears Thome is having a slightly better season than Abreu. What are there win share totals?

Jason Moyer · 08-21-2003, 03:01 PM

Code:

Player          Team    Pos     Hit     Field   Pitch   Sum     WS	
--------	----	----	-----	-----	-----	-----	---	
B Abreu         PHI     OF      19.61   3.36    0.00    22.97   23	
J Thome         PHI     1B      19.97   2.41    0.00    22.38   22	
P Polanco       PHI     2B      13.37   5.57    0.00    18.95   19	
J Rollins       PHI     SS      6.31    7.20    0.00    13.52   14	
R Wolf          PHI     P       0.00    0.00    11.61   11.61   12

Edit: Just as a random follow up, here are the NL Gold Glove awards if they were awarded by WS earned:

Code:

Player          Team    Pos     INN       Field   Rank    WS/1000 INN	
---------	----	---	------	  -----   ---- 	  ------	
B Ausmus        HOU     C       904 1/3   7.60    1       8.41
D Lee           FLA     1B      1044 2/3  2.69    1       2.57	
A Cora          LA      2B      842 1/3   5.98    1       7.10	
J Rollins       PHI     SS      1039 2/3  7.20    1       6.93
M Lowell        FLA     3B      1027 2/3  3.67    1       3.58
L Gonzalez      ARI     OF      1074 2/3  3.94    4       3.67	
A Jones         ATL     OF      1045      5.29    1       5.06
R Hidalgo       HOU     OF      876 2/3   3.39    8       3.87

Abreu is just behind Hidalgo as far as NL RF go, and is 0.02 win shares behind Ichiro, defensively.

Jason

Dwolfson20 · 08-21-2003, 03:01 PM

Well, Mariner and Giants Fan... if you admit to using faulty logic just to prove your point, and don't seem to have any qualms about that, it's quite hard for me to discuss this with you anymore. It's a waste of time.

Yes, Ichiro did win the MVP. My point is that he should not have. You can't use the fact that he won as the reason that he should have won. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry.

Hammer755 · 08-21-2003, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
Well, Mariner and Giants Fan... if you admit to using faulty logic just to prove your point, and don't seem to have any qualms about that, it's quite hard for me to discuss this with you anymore. It's a waste of time.

Yes, Ichiro did win the MVP. My point is that he should not have. You can't use the fact that he won as the reason that he should have won. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry.

ESPN said so.

View Poll Results: Who would you want starting in Right Field
Ichiro Suzuki	36	59.02%
Bobby Abreu	25	40.98%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

08-20-2003, 08:55 PM	#81
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,112	I'd rather have Bobby Abreu, Andruw Jones, Barry Bonds, Jim Thome, Marcus Giles, Scott Rolen, Alex Rodriguez and no money than Ichiro, Jones, Bonds, Thome, Giles, Rolen, A Rod and $6 million. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

08-21-2003, 01:29 AM	#87
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	I have to say it again, the averages over 2001~2003 of Ichiro and Abreu might look similar, they are not the same. Ichiro was better than Abreu in 2001, and worse than Abreu in 2002. Abreu enjoyed about the same good years, while Ichiro had a great one in 2001. For personal glory and award winning, sure a great season + a decent season looks much better than two very good seasons. Heh, I am not even a Ichiro fan, although my girlfriend is. And I sure believe sabermetrics as much as the next guy.Why am I the one defending Ichiro? It feel like a war against fake statheads. I don't mean defending Abreu to be anything wrong, just some attacks on Ichiro just look stupid. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

08-21-2003, 09:36 AM	#88
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,112	Hm, Win Shares by season (Abreu first, Ichiro second) 2001 26 36 2002 29 25 2003 23 22 Ichiro has been more valuable by 5 win shares overall (through August 19th) but Abreu has been better in 2 of 3 seasons (so far). What I see there is Ichiro with an MVP quality season and 2 all-star quality seasons, and Abreu with 3 all-star quality seasons. For the record, Abreu had 3 all-star quality seasons before this as well, with 26, 26, and 23 win shares from 98-00. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech Last edited by Jason Moyer; 08-21-2003 at 09:38 AM.

08-21-2003, 11:51 AM	#90
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Mariner and Giants fan, might I suggest that you quit while you are way, way behind. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

08-20-2003, 09:00 PM	#82
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	I dont see that as a valid argument, there are more than two teams in MLB, are there not. Obviously you cant have 8 all-stars on your team. Your going to have some weaker players and that 14 million can be of great use to improving your team.

08-20-2003, 09:40 PM	#84
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	ok, you cant have 8 of the 16 most talented players in the league on one team, will that work?

08-21-2003, 12:43 PM	#94
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,112	Being the best player on a playoff team isn't high caliber? It's funny that Ichiro is getting MVP articles now on ESPN when Boone is having a much better season (and neither really compare at all to Delgado or A Rod). Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

08-21-2003, 02:53 PM	#96
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,112	Still... Ichiro over Boone? Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

08-21-2003, 02:58 PM	#97
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	Jason, I did some looking at the stats and it appears Thome is having a slightly better season than Abreu. What are there win share totals?

08-21-2003, 03:01 PM	#98
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,112	Code: Player Team Pos Hit Field Pitch Sum WS -------- ---- ---- ----- ----- ----- ----- --- B Abreu PHI OF 19.61 3.36 0.00 22.97 23 J Thome PHI 1B 19.97 2.41 0.00 22.38 22 P Polanco PHI 2B 13.37 5.57 0.00 18.95 19 J Rollins PHI SS 6.31 7.20 0.00 13.52 14 R Wolf PHI P 0.00 0.00 11.61 11.61 12 Edit: Just as a random follow up, here are the NL Gold Glove awards if they were awarded by WS earned: Code: Player Team Pos INN Field Rank WS/1000 INN --------- ---- --- ------ ----- ---- ------ B Ausmus HOU C 904 1/3 7.60 1 8.41 D Lee FLA 1B 1044 2/3 2.69 1 2.57 A Cora LA 2B 842 1/3 5.98 1 7.10 J Rollins PHI SS 1039 2/3 7.20 1 6.93 M Lowell FLA 3B 1027 2/3 3.67 1 3.58 L Gonzalez ARI OF 1074 2/3 3.94 4 3.67 A Jones ATL OF 1045 5.29 1 5.06 R Hidalgo HOU OF 876 2/3 3.39 8 3.87 Abreu is just behind Hidalgo as far as NL RF go, and is 0.02 win shares behind Ichiro, defensively. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech Last edited by Jason Moyer; 08-21-2003 at 03:10 PM.

08-21-2003, 03:01 PM	#99
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	Well, Mariner and Giants Fan... if you admit to using faulty logic just to prove your point, and don't seem to have any qualms about that, it's quite hard for me to discuss this with you anymore. It's a waste of time. Yes, Ichiro did win the MVP. My point is that he should not have. You can't use the fact that he won as the reason that he should have won. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry. __________________