Who would you want starting in Right Field?

[KurtBevacqua]

Originally posted by draven085
I believe the point of this thread is to discuss which player is a better baseball player, not a better draw. The latter is not even debateable. Since all the Ichiro supporters use this as their reasoning for taking him, I will assume they have no evidence that he is actually a better baseball player. Besides, doesn't winning ballgames and making the playoffs have a decent payoff too?

The title of this thread is "Who would you rather have starting in RF". I caveated my answer by saying "If I were an owner..." I stand by my statement within the context of how I framed it. Ichiro is a great player, so is Abreu. Personally, I don't know who is better. Compelling arguments can be made either way. But I can say with absolute certainty if your goal is to put the lineup on the field that makes the most $$ then this isn't even debateable.
Those that argue about who is the better value are making a foolish argument. Ichiro far and away is the better value per $. He is one of the three most (if not THE most) profitable player in the game. I wouldn't bring salaries into the discussion unless you are prepared to discuss the revenue that accompanies the investment.

I have also read many articles on professional sports across the board that draw the conclusion that teams frequently lose money in post season play. I know it's really a case by case basis, but there is no great windfall from it. TV revenue is split regardless.

If the goal is to win games without regard to dollars and cents, I think it can go either way. I just wanted to make a different point than throwing all those stats out there. To me, the stats between the two are inconclusive.

[blackamus]

Does everyone consider Abreu to be as good of a defender as Ichiro? I've seen Abreu quite a bit and from my observations would consider him an excellent defender. On the "intangibles" front... I like Ichiro's swing however...Abreu is the leader on the "supercoolname" front. Superficially this would not seem to be the case. however, when one considers that the Philadelphia PA announcer calls him "BobbaBrayoo" (****ING-A I CANNOT THINK OF A GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT ENDING FOR THIS SENTENCE). Anyways...I like words and bobbabrayoo just sounds rad.
thanks for your time

[twins15]

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
He's having a damn fine year for a rookie, even if he is the same age as Abreu and Ichiro.

Unfortunately, 29 is past the normal peak age, so hopefully it's not all downhill from here.

Edit: Top 10 rookies through 8/10:

Hideki Matsui 14.47
Brandon Webb 13.62
Angel Berroa 12.49
Ty Wigginton 12.10
Dontrelle Willis 11.28
Rocco Baldelli 11.21
Scott Podsednik 10.29
Marlon Byrd 10.11
Jason Phillips 9.89
Mark Teixeira 9.28

Jason

Where did you find this info?

[Jason Moyer]

http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/

Jason

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan

My Dad (bless his soul) used to say that "statistics are for losers". What he meant by that was that the only people interested in the statistics at the end of the day were not the ones who won the day!

That's loser statistics. Losers are interested in statistics. Winners are interested in manipulating statistics. Just what ctorg said. I seldom trust the fancy graphs in meetings until I got more details and understandings behind them. Sometimes it's just easy to take the same data and come up with opposite logical answers.

And yeah, although too many assumptions sometimes, Bill James' numbers looked alright. Just that you got to give win shares a reasonable error margin. What win shares' saying is not exactly Matsui #1, Webb #2. It's more like Matsui and Webb in the top group, while Berroa and Wigginton close behind or in the same group.

[EagleEye_0]

I would choose Ichiro. Not because hes the better player, which hes not, but because the revenue he would bring to the club would allow much more financial freedom in aquiring other players.

[streetballer67]

Ichiro

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
The intangibles makeup a great deal of a players success.

Thank you for sig quote #2.

I think this thread has disappointed me far more than any political discussion I've had... and this time crackpott's on my side. Scary indeed.

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by Hammer755
Thank you for sig quote #2.

I think this thread has disappointed me far more than any political discussion I've had... and this time crackpott's on my side. Scary indeed.

The question " who would you want starting in right field" would just trigger lots of votes with financial considerations. And indeed you do not want the poll to mean that, but that's just how some see it.

You got to admit a team would be much better off with Ichiro. Can't blame fans not viewing players just as stats. David Beckham? Anna Kournikova? Beckham would not help Real Madrid much on the field I believe, still he's their most valuable player marketing-wise.

And I would believe all those voting for Abreu are reading the question in a different way.

Maybe you can start a new poll asking " whose stats are better" or even " whose on the field contribution is bigger" and expect more satisfying results.

[ctorg]

Originally posted by Skipaway
The question " who would you want starting in right field" would just trigger lots of votes with financial considerations. And indeed you do not want the poll to mean that, but that's just how some see it.

You got to admit a team would be much better off with Ichiro. Can't blame fans not viewing players just as stats. David Beckham? Anna Kournikova? Beckham would not help Real Madrid much on the field I believe, still he's their most valuable player marketing-wise.

And I would believe all those voting for Abreu are reading the question in a different way.

Maybe you can start a new poll asking " whose stats are better" or even " whose on the field contribution is bigger" and expect more satisfying results.

An interesting way of looking at things, which this post made me think about:

Baseball players are basically performers, like actors or musicians in a way. MVP can be seen as an award given to the player who gave the best performance. That doesn't necessarily mean he had the best stats, drove in the most runs, or whatever. It's the guy who had the most compelling story or put on the best show.

I wouldn't personally give the award based on these things, but it might tug me one way or the other when I'm not sure between two guys. Others might put more weight on statistical performance or on what I described above, which I guess you could call "overall performance" or something.

[draven085]

Originally posted by Skipaway
You got to admit a team would be much better off with Ichiro.

Not if they are interested in winning baseball games, which should be the goal of all baseball teams.

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by draven085
Not if they are interested in winning baseball games, which should be the goal of all baseball teams.

I believe more in what ctorg said one post above.

The ultimate goal would be making more money. And for our best interest, making money in the long term.

What some owners are doing now are going for the short term gains. They just refuse to spend much, and suck the blood out of whatever fans left. I'd say it's the Clippers' way ( at least before this off season).

The better way would be the Mav's way or the Yankees' way. They know winning is good for the business long term, and they are not afraid to spend more money to enlarge the potential market. Winning is a goal because winning helps you earn money.
That's why Matsui got value even when he was not very good earlier this year. Without Matsui in the starting lineup, people in Japan would not bother to tune in. And that's how you justify Jeter's ridiculus contract.

What we as fans might need to do is to ensure the owners winning is what we care. If the owners sensed that winning is not that important for generating revenues, no one would even bother try to win. They might just turn it into something like WWE.

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by draven085
Not if they are interested in winning baseball games, which should be the goal of all baseball teams.

And even without the fan issue, Ichiro is still a much better choice overall.

Ichiro's salary is only half of Abreu's. You can sure use the extra 4mil+ to improve your team elsewhere.

[Maze&Blue]

Originally posted by Hammer755
Thank you for sig quote #2.

I think this thread has disappointed me far more than any political discussion I've had... and this time crackpott's on my side. Scary indeed.

I hope you realize mine was a joke.

And if i was the manager Id do whats best for me to win, not make money since I can make a bunch of money for the owner, but when the team is 61-101 instead of say 66-96 and I get fired for another 100 loss year..

[Mariner and Giants Fan]

It's interesting how some of the comments in this thread:
(1) ESPN doesn't know what it is talking about, saying that Ichiro is MVP material, etc.! Isn't ports Network? By definition, doesn't that make them the authority on such things? Sure they are not always right but.....
(2) Ichiro makes allot less money so he is better to have...etc...This thread was purely about the players talents not finances! I am still of the opinion that Ichiro is a more talented player than Abreu.
(3) Statistics used to show Abreu is as good as or better than Ichiro.....Well aren't statistics used to chose MVPs? Ichiro has an MVP, how many does Abreu have?
(4) Intagibles are so much nonsense......So are opinions, or so it seems, but look at all the "knowledgable" commentators on ESPN or Fox and many times they agree or disagree, sometimes they even mention these intangibles, such as a winning attitude or a competetive nature or a clubhouse leader! Those are intangibles!

This thread kind of mirrors the debate about what is an MVP. Is an MVP the player with the best stats? Or the player with the most significant impact on his team?

[Maze&Blue]

Originally posted by Mariner and Giants Fan
It's interesting how some of the comments in this thread:
(1) ESPN doesn't know what it is talking about, saying that Ichiro is MVP material, etc.! Isn't ports Network? By definition, doesn't that make them the authority on such things? Sure they are not always right but.....
(2) Ichiro makes allot less money so he is better to have...etc...This thread was purely about the players talents not finances! I am still of the opinion that Ichiro is a more talented player than Abreu.
(3) Statistics used to show Abreu is as good as or better than Ichiro.....Well aren't statistics used to chose MVPs? Ichiro has an MVP, how many does Abreu have?
(4) Intagibles are so much nonsense......So are opinions, or so it seems, but look at all the "knowledgable" commentators on ESPN or Fox and many times they agree or disagree, sometimes they even mention these intangibles, such as a winning attitude or a competetive nature or a clubhouse leader! Those are intangibles!

This thread kind of mirrors the debate about what is an MVP. Is an MVP the player with the best stats? Or the player with the most significant impact on his team?

1)
NO it doesnt, they are the self proclaimed leader in sports. OK I AM NOW THE AUTHORITY ON SPORTS whatever I say is true. These are the same guys that said Ryan Leaf was gonna be a start.

2)
Who said it was all about talent. The question was Who would you rather have starting in RF, it doens't specify if it is as an onwer or manager

3)
The MVP is voted upon, so it comes down to how the voters view the stats and whos stats they choose to look at, like ignoring AROD to look at Tejada....

4)
I have a winning attitude where do I sign. A winning attitude only helps that particular player (if he concentrates he will play better not his team as a whole). If you ever played sports (which im sure most of us have) the people who get all excited for meaning less games and try and pump you up get really annoying so you ignore them. Just because Nomar likes to play doens't mean Derek Loewe is going to pitch better.


I agree with some of what you say...but dont attack us.

[Mariner and Giants Fan]

Originally posted by Maze&Blue
1)
NO it doesnt, they are the self proclaimed leader in sports. OK I AM NOW THE AUTHORITY ON SPORTS whatever I say is true. These are the same guys that said Ryan Leaf was gonna be a start.

2)
Who said it was all about talent. The question was Who would you rather have starting in RF, it doens't specify if it is as an onwer or manager

3)
The MVP is voted upon, so it comes down to how the voters view the stats and whos stats they choose to look at, like ignoring AROD to look at Tejada....

4)
I have a winning attitude where do I sign. A winning attitude only helps that particular player (if he concentrates he will play better not his team as a whole). If you ever played sports (which im sure most of us have) the people who get all excited for meaning less games and try and pump you up get really annoying so you ignore them. Just because Nomar likes to play doens't mean Derek Loewe is going to pitch better.


I agree with some of what you say...but dont attack us.

Sorry you took this as an attack, it was only meant to be commentary on what I preceive you are saying. I am enjoying this discussion.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally posted by Skipaway
Ichiro's salary is only half of Abreu's. You can sure use the extra 4mil+ to improve your team elsewhere.

You have to field the same number of players no matter how much money you spend.

Jason

[EagleEye_0]

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
You have to field the same number of players no matter how much money you spend.

Jason

I think some of you guys are totally missing the boat on what Skipaway is saying regarding finances. Lets say for example that not only does Ichiro make 4 million less, but he created another 10 million in revenue to what Abreu would have created. Since there is no salary cap, I then have 14 million more dollars to UPGRADE THE TEAM ELSEWHERE.

Would Abreu and a 14 million dollar free agent not be better than Abreu and one of your weaker players.

[twins15]

Originally posted by EagleEye_0
Would Abreu and a 14 million dollar free agent not be better than Abreu and one of your weaker players.

Yes, I think so, because I would take a 14 million dollar FA over a weaker player anyday, since the other player is the same.