Something seems off with the new trade logic in my game

malichai11 · 09-23-2016, 06:53 PM

Alright, I'm 1241 hours into this version of OOTP 17, and I've played through hundreds and hundreds of seasons. I'm a manager/simmer. I almost never, ever play out a game. But I trade ALL the time. Very Hard/Favor Prospects. There is something super off in my historical league right now. I even had to turn on trade draft picks, and set scouting to 100% to make sure I'm getting a perfectly accurate picture (I usually play with draft-pick trading on, but wanted a more historical experience this time).

I'm attempting to trade a 75/77 closer on an AWESOME contract to a Win-now team with desperate need for a closer. I'm offering the closer, a 10th, 9th, 8th, 7th, and 6th round draft pick to a team for their 10th round draft pick (that's not a typo, their 10th, not their first). They say it's not a very good deal and they would like my 24 year old 80/80 starting pitcher or 76/74 21 year older catcher to make it work. Let's change it up, remove the 10th round pick I'm asking for and instead try to trade for a 23 year old 20/20 relief pitcher. It's STILL not a fair deal, they still want that SP and C. In hundreds of seasons I've never seen draft logic like this until now, in this league. Maybe that closer I'm trying to trade is poison? I remove him from the trade. I remove all of my draft picks from the trade, in case they are bugged or something. I'm JUST trying to trade for some garbage 23 year old relief pitcher 20/20. They want my 24 year old 80/80 starting pitcher. Either my game is bugged, or VH/Favor Prospect draft logic got jacked up.

edit - I just changed draft logic to Normal/Neutral and it is still messed up. They want my star SP or star Catcher for their garbage players. I'm trying to trade with other teams and still getting ridiculous asks for garbage players, and draft pick trading is now terrible. On Normal/Neutral, if I want a 10th round pick, I have to offer a 1st. They won't even accept a 2nd/10th for THEIR 10th. The draft-pick trading logic used to be pretty darn solid. I'm going to start a new historical game and test trade logic to see if it is my game that is bugged or what after I eat dinner.

RchW · 09-23-2016, 07:07 PM

I wasn't aware that a new trade logic existed.

malichai11 · 09-23-2016, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

I wasn't aware that a new trade logic existed.

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to confirm that had happened. I'll edit my post in a second as soon as I finish dinner.

edit - dang it, I put that in the thread title, now I feel bad.

malichai11 · 09-23-2016, 07:38 PM

Validated my files. Started a new, current MLB league, trading logic is still pretty buggered for me. Scouting off, Very Hard/Neutral, trying to trade for some random 20/20 relief pitcher from the Win-now Detroit Tigers (Jesus Paricaguan). They want Yordano Ventura and one of Lorenzo Cain, Alex Gordon, or Salvador Perez. Forget draft pick trading. To try to get their 10th round pick, they want my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th round pick AND at least 1 player. On Average/Neutral, their 10th round pick is worth a 2nd, 3rd and 4th. And that garbage 20/20 relief pitcher I wanted before? He's now available for either Lorenzo Cain, Wade Davis, Alex Gordon, Eric Hosmer, Salvador Perez, or Yordano Ventura.

malichai11 · 09-23-2016, 08:09 PM

It's not just my Steam version, my direct-download version has the same weird trading logic now with the latest patch. Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to revert to the previous version to fix it, and I don't seem to have my original ootp17setup file anywhere so that I can do direct comparisons between versions.

PSUColonel · 09-23-2016, 08:33 PM

I would not be using very hard if I were you. Average/default is now very challenging in its own right. It's much more realistic IMO. The AI is going to "shoot for the stars" when you ask for a list of players. It is up to you to negotiate what you feel might be a fair trade.

PSUColonel · 09-23-2016, 08:36 PM

There is nothing wrong with the trade logic. Trades are not easy...you need to work at negotiations to find a good deal. It may be a little tougher to do crap deals, but the alternative would make it too easy to rip off the AI. If it really bothers you, turn your trade difficulty to easy or very easy.

malichai11 · 09-23-2016, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I would not be using very hard if I were you. Average/default is now very challenging in its own right. It's much more realistic IMO. The AI is going to "shoot for the stars" when you ask for a list of players. It is up to you to negotiate what you feel might be a fair trade.

I understand and absolutely respect you and your experience with this game. You're a veteran pro and I'm not questioning you. But, I'm at 1242 hours of constant simming this year and 1716 hours on the last version. I am intimately aware of the trade logic. The vast majority of my active play is trading. Tweaking, adding a player here, removing checking to see what works. What is happening right now is new and different. Draft-pick trading logic just got borked and is the canary in the coal mine for this. On Average/Neutral it shouldn't take a star player to pick up an absolute garbage relief pitcher from all teams. It also shouldn't take a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round pick to acquire a 10th round draft pick. The last time I saw something this weird was when you had Generate International Amateur Free Agents off and it caused the International Complex to disappear.

I'm disabled and spend about 6 hours a day playing this game (more like 12 hours a day half of the week when my pain levels are low enough). I really, truly believe there is something weird going on right now that just popped up recently.

PSUColonel · 09-23-2016, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malichai11

I understand and absolutely respect you and your experience with this game. You're a veteran pro and I'm not questioning you. But, I'm at 1242 hours of constant simming this year and 1716 hours on the last version. I am intimately aware of the trade logic. The vast majority of my active play is trading. Tweaking, adding a player here, removing checking to see what works. What is happening right now is new and different. Draft-pick trading logic just got borked and is the canary in the coal mine for this. On Average/Neutral it shouldn't take a star player to pick up an absolute garbage relief pitcher from all teams. It also shouldn't take a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round pick to acquire a 10th round draft pick. The last time I saw something this weird was when you had Generate International Amateur Free Agents off and it caused the International Complex to disappear.

I'm disabled and spend about 6 hours a day playing this game (more like 12 hours a day half of the week when my pain levels are low enough). I really, truly believe there is something weird going on right now that just popped up recently.

It does not require a star player all the time to obtain garbage. The AI is saying, "this is who I want". What it wants, and what it gets, are two different things. Sometimes for whatever reason, the AI simply doesn't want to trade.

May I suggest filling out a team needs list also. While the AI will present players it may never have any intention of trading to you, it also keeps this list in mind when presenting offers. I've actually had some pretty mundane trades happen. Not a lot of blockbuster deals.

I can honestly say I feel the AI is the best it's ever been right now. I realize it's not perfect, and never will be, but I feel it's pretty challenging and realistic on the defaults right now.

malichai11 · 09-23-2016, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I can honestly say I feel the AI is the best it's ever been right now. I realize it's not perfect, and never will be, but I feel it's pretty challenging and realistic on the defaults right now.

Until some time within the last week or so I would've agreed that the AI was the best I'd ever seen. I was so happy with OOTP 17. I no longer felt I really needed to handicap myself when making trades or set-up house rules to make sure I wasn't taking advantage of the system (besides running at VH/FP). Again, I spend on average, 6 hours a day, every single day of the year making trades on this game. I know how the system works.

Even draft-picking trading, a non-real-world fantasy option, was finally working and working really well. I'm guessing that's an option you've never played with, so you wouldn't notice when it gets drastically changed. It used to be logical with OOTP17, a 1st was always worth more than a 2nd, suddenly a 10th being worth as much as a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th is an obvious change that would only be noticeable to the 0.01% or less of people that use draft-pick trading. And that's on Average trading difficulty.

I'm obviously not going to convince you there's something wrong, and you aren't going to convince me that nothing has changed or that I don't know how to play the game. But I really appreciate you taking the time to try and talk to me about this.

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of a set-up file for an older version of the game to run comparison tests to figure out when the change was made. So I'll have to wait until Matt weighs in.

robert2 · 09-24-2016, 02:33 AM

I've noticed this lately too. I don't play with draft pick trading on, but on the average/neutral setting I can select any team's random 24 year old with zero potential in short-season A ball and when I hit "make this work now," they're only willing to take the same few top prospects or superstar Major Leaguer every time.

PSUColonel · 09-24-2016, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert2

I've noticed this lately too. I don't play with draft pick trading on, but on the average/neutral setting I can select any team's random 24 year old with zero potential in short-season A ball and when I hit "make this work now," they're only willing to take the same few top prospects or superstar Major Leaguer every time.

Again...why don't you try offering other players. When you hit "make this work now" the AI is simply giving you a list of players on your roster that it likes. You don't have to include these players in the trade....but you can use them as a starting point to find out what other players in your organization the AI might like.

The trading AI is very very good right now. You guys are being a little lazy, and not wanting to work at negotiating.

BBGiovanni · 09-24-2016, 05:16 PM

I think recent editions' AI is much better at dealing from need. If a team has a good catcher, a decent backup, and a good catching prospect, they don't want your catcher. If they have no credible SS, you might be able to get something from them for a decent SS prospect.

I also think the trading block is more important these days... if you find someone helpful on there it's often possible to get the AI to throw in a prospect or other player to make a deal bigger. Ditto for when you shop a guy and then negotiate with those teams. I'm playing a 64 team league right now, so that's the only reasonable way to trade players.

NoOne · 09-24-2016, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malichai11

Validated my files. Started a new, current MLB league, trading logic is still pretty buggered for me. Scouting off, Very Hard/Neutral, trying to trade for some random 20/20 relief pitcher from the Win-now Detroit Tigers (Jesus Paricaguan). They want Yordano Ventura and one of Lorenzo Cain, Alex Gordon, or Salvador Perez. Forget draft pick trading. To try to get their 10th round pick, they want my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th round pick AND at least 1 player. On Average/Neutral, their 10th round pick is worth a 2nd, 3rd and 4th. And that garbage 20/20 relief pitcher I wanted before? He's now available for either Lorenzo Cain, Wade Davis, Alex Gordon, Eric Hosmer, Salvador Perez, or Yordano Ventura.

you should definitely trade with detroit

<-- detroit fan

Edit:

Don't use the the "make this deal work" button. it's always terrible. you can definitely sift through unwanted prospects and find a much more preferable trade package - especially with draft pick trading.

if you want, you can have the first X draft picks or x of first 10 etc... really take advantage and you can have the first 10+, probably (FA signings for picks etc...). i'm sure some years are better than others. Either way, in a few years you will be swimming in prospects selling off older ones for 'better' ones or more draft picks and using the rest on your team. a serpent eating its own tail!

PSUColonel · 09-25-2016, 11:43 AM

Here is a good example of a trade I just negotiated...originally Atlanta approached me, wanting Cesar Hernandez for Chacin straight up.

I had to start adding other players I really didn't want to trade and then hit "make this work now" to find out who else besides my very top players the AI might be interested in.

PSUColonel · 09-25-2016, 11:47 AM

Here are the details of the trade:

PSUColonel · 09-25-2016, 05:34 PM

May I recvomend using 55/25/15/5 as your AI evaluation. I realize 65/20/10/5 is the default, but I believe this small change to be beneficial. In fact I am going to suggest to make it the new default.

09-23-2016, 06:53 PM	#1
malichai11 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 282	Something seems off with the new trade logic in my game Alright, I'm 1241 hours into this version of OOTP 17, and I've played through hundreds and hundreds of seasons. I'm a manager/simmer. I almost never, ever play out a game. But I trade ALL the time. Very Hard/Favor Prospects. There is something super off in my historical league right now. I even had to turn on trade draft picks, and set scouting to 100% to make sure I'm getting a perfectly accurate picture (I usually play with draft-pick trading on, but wanted a more historical experience this time). I'm attempting to trade a 75/77 closer on an AWESOME contract to a Win-now team with desperate need for a closer. I'm offering the closer, a 10th, 9th, 8th, 7th, and 6th round draft pick to a team for their 10th round draft pick (that's not a typo, their 10th, not their first). They say it's not a very good deal and they would like my 24 year old 80/80 starting pitcher or 76/74 21 year older catcher to make it work. Let's change it up, remove the 10th round pick I'm asking for and instead try to trade for a 23 year old 20/20 relief pitcher. It's STILL not a fair deal, they still want that SP and C. In hundreds of seasons I've never seen draft logic like this until now, in this league. Maybe that closer I'm trying to trade is poison? I remove him from the trade. I remove all of my draft picks from the trade, in case they are bugged or something. I'm JUST trying to trade for some garbage 23 year old relief pitcher 20/20. They want my 24 year old 80/80 starting pitcher. Either my game is bugged, or VH/Favor Prospect draft logic got jacked up. edit - I just changed draft logic to Normal/Neutral and it is still messed up. They want my star SP or star Catcher for their garbage players. I'm trying to trade with other teams and still getting ridiculous asks for garbage players, and draft pick trading is now terrible. On Normal/Neutral, if I want a 10th round pick, I have to offer a 1st. They won't even accept a 2nd/10th for THEIR 10th. The draft-pick trading logic used to be pretty darn solid. I'm going to start a new historical game and test trade logic to see if it is my game that is bugged or what after I eat dinner. Last edited by malichai11; 09-23-2016 at 07:00 PM.

09-23-2016, 07:07 PM	#2
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I wasn't aware that a new trade logic existed. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

09-23-2016, 07:38 PM	#4
malichai11 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 282	Validated my files. Started a new, current MLB league, trading logic is still pretty buggered for me. Scouting off, Very Hard/Neutral, trying to trade for some random 20/20 relief pitcher from the Win-now Detroit Tigers (Jesus Paricaguan). They want Yordano Ventura and one of Lorenzo Cain, Alex Gordon, or Salvador Perez. Forget draft pick trading. To try to get their 10th round pick, they want my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th round pick AND at least 1 player. On Average/Neutral, their 10th round pick is worth a 2nd, 3rd and 4th. And that garbage 20/20 relief pitcher I wanted before? He's now available for either Lorenzo Cain, Wade Davis, Alex Gordon, Eric Hosmer, Salvador Perez, or Yordano Ventura. Last edited by malichai11; 09-23-2016 at 07:41 PM.

09-23-2016, 08:33 PM	#6
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,141	I would not be using very hard if I were you. Average/default is now very challenging in its own right. It's much more realistic IMO. The AI is going to "shoot for the stars" when you ask for a list of players. It is up to you to negotiate what you feel might be a fair trade. Last edited by PSUColonel; 09-23-2016 at 08:35 PM.

09-23-2016, 08:36 PM	#7
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,141	There is nothing wrong with the trade logic. Trades are not easy...you need to work at negotiations to find a good deal. It may be a little tougher to do crap deals, but the alternative would make it too easy to rip off the AI. If it really bothers you, turn your trade difficulty to easy or very easy. Last edited by PSUColonel; 09-23-2016 at 08:38 PM.

09-23-2016, 08:09 PM	#5
malichai11 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 282	It's not just my Steam version, my direct-download version has the same weird trading logic now with the latest patch. Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to revert to the previous version to fix it, and I don't seem to have my original ootp17setup file anywhere so that I can do direct comparisons between versions.

09-24-2016, 02:33 AM	#11
robert2 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 48	I've noticed this lately too. I don't play with draft pick trading on, but on the average/neutral setting I can select any team's random 24 year old with zero potential in short-season A ball and when I hit "make this work now," they're only willing to take the same few top prospects or superstar Major Leaguer every time.

09-24-2016, 05:16 PM	#13
BBGiovanni All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Republic of California Posts: 1,911	I think recent editions' AI is much better at dealing from need. If a team has a good catcher, a decent backup, and a good catching prospect, they don't want your catcher. If they have no credible SS, you might be able to get something from them for a decent SS prospect. I also think the trading block is more important these days... if you find someone helpful on there it's often possible to get the AI to throw in a prospect or other player to make a deal bigger. Ditto for when you shop a guy and then negotiate with those teams. I'm playing a 64 team league right now, so that's the only reasonable way to trade players.

09-25-2016, 11:43 AM	#15
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,141	Here is a good example of a trade I just negotiated...originally Atlanta approached me, wanting Cesar Hernandez for Chacin straight up. I had to start adding other players I really didn't want to trade and then hit "make this work now" to find out who else besides my very top players the AI might be interested in. Attached Images

09-25-2016, 11:47 AM	#16
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,141	Here are the details of the trade: Attached Images

09-25-2016, 05:34 PM	#17
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,141	May I recvomend using 55/25/15/5 as your AI evaluation. I realize 65/20/10/5 is the default, but I believe this small change to be beneficial. In fact I am going to suggest to make it the new default. Last edited by PSUColonel; 09-25-2016 at 05:39 PM.