Does this game actually need house rules? - Page 2

Matt Arnold · 06-30-2016, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePretender

If you're letting a player go to arb or FA then you've waited too long. That's my point. So from this comment it seems like you don't know when to do it. I've been able to do this with players since OOTP 14, so it's something that hasn't been fixed for quite some time.

I know it used to be like that, but the last version or 2 have made improvements where top players shouldn't sign away for dirt cheap anymore. I just tested - I have a AA center fielder with a 56 potential, and he rejected a 10 year/50M deal (although I'd start to think that's a bug the other way and he probably should take that deal...). Anyone who's a top prospect will probably need closer to 80M over 10 years to sign. So yeah, if you sign guys to those deals, you might make out like a bandit in a few years, but if he doesn't pan out, might not look so pretty.

ThePretender · 07-01-2016, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I know it used to be like that, but the last version or 2 have made improvements where top players shouldn't sign away for dirt cheap anymore. I just tested - I have a AA center fielder with a 56 potential, and he rejected a 10 year/50M deal (although I'd start to think that's a bug the other way and he probably should take that deal...). Anyone who's a top prospect will probably need closer to 80M over 10 years to sign. So yeah, if you sign guys to those deals, you might make out like a bandit in a few years, but if he doesn't pan out, might not look so pretty.

It's still like this, actually. Just tested with OOTP 17 quickstart.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

He's a 57 pot SP from the quick start.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

He's a 75 pot Cl/SP

Granted, these guys were a little "riskier", so maybe that's why they'd take it. At least Gallo wasn't taking that kind of deal, so that's good.

Unfortunately, it must be something related to my online league. One of my top specs is Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet. He's a 49 pot, but essentially a mid rotation SP. Our commish capped the # of years we can sign a player to a max of 6, but I was able to sign him for 6 years @ 2M each. A bargain, given in this league FA is after 5 service years, not 6 like MLB. Cash is also capped @ 30M, and I'd say only 6 GMs have more than 10M cash on hand.

Another example is Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet, a 55 pot player who has #2 or even #1 SP upside in this league, and he's already in the majors (just debuted).

So there definitely have been improvements to the quickstarts, but some league settings obviously affect it. Maybe you set it by potential? Doubtful though, since this 70 pot C (Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet) was able to sign a cheap deal as well (and he's in the minors and far away).

I'm not the commish so I don't know the exact settings, but there's not a lot of cash available and no incentive for players to take a deal when they're close to MLB ready (or in the majors), can be a FA after their fifth year, and would be willing to take a 6 year deal under 3M. They'd easily make 4-5M in arb alone, and players of this calibre could do 13-20M in FA.

Matt Arnold · 07-01-2016, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePretender

It's still like this, actually. Just tested with OOTP 17 quickstart.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

He's a 57 pot SP from the quick start.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

He's a 75 pot Cl/SP

Granted, these guys were a little "riskier", so maybe that's why they'd take it. At least Gallo wasn't taking that kind of deal, so that's good.

Unfortunately, it must be something related to my online league. One of my top specs is Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet. He's a 49 pot, but essentially a mid rotation SP. Our commish capped the # of years we can sign a player to a max of 6, but I was able to sign him for 6 years @ 2M each. A bargain, given in this league FA is after 5 service years, not 6 like MLB. Cash is also capped @ 30M, and I'd say only 6 GMs have more than 10M cash on hand.

Another example is Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet, a 55 pot player who has #2 or even #1 SP upside in this league, and he's already in the majors (just debuted).

So there definitely have been improvements to the quickstarts, but some league settings obviously affect it. Maybe you set it by potential? Doubtful though, since this 70 pot C (Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet) was able to sign a cheap deal as well (and he's in the minors and far away).

I'm not the commish so I don't know the exact settings, but there's not a lot of cash available and no incentive for players to take a deal when they're close to MLB ready (or in the majors), can be a FA after their fifth year, and would be willing to take a 6 year deal under 3M. They'd easily make 4-5M in arb alone, and players of this calibre could do 13-20M in FA.

Remember, players will fail as well. The closer they are to their potential, the less they're willing to sign the long deals.

I mean, in the examples you gave, you list a 17 year old kid willing to sign. Obviously he would - he's probably 2-3 years away from even making the majors, so he's really not eating up any FA years in that case.

Even guys in the majors, they can get hurt, they can fail, etc... So yeah, your can't miss guys like Gallo won't sign. But even if your Nick Martinez example, a starter with a BB/9 above 3 and a K/9 hovering around 5 often won't even stick around in the majors after a few years. Gaining some security in a guaranteed deal is not necessarily a bad thing.

Up here in Canada · 07-01-2016, 04:15 PM

I'm trying to get my settings in place before I fully backup the league. Some of my concerns were the result of this piece:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OOTP/commen...and_trick_ive/

I will look over that settings thread as well. I am adjusting the NABA quickstart for my league of choice.

BigRed75 · 07-01-2016, 09:55 PM

I saw the word "reddit" and immediately disregarded it.

That's my house rule.

Up here in Canada · 07-01-2016, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRed75

I saw the word "reddit" and immediately disregarded it.

That's my house rule.

ThePretender · 07-02-2016, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Remember, players will fail as well. The closer they are to their potential, the less they're willing to sign the long deals.

I think this was disproven with the SP I mentioned, wasn't it? SP Brock D is already in the majors, and 8-6-7 out of 8-7-8. The other one was 6-7-6 out of 7-8-6. In that league that's a #1 SP and a #2/3 SP who are willing to sign away FA years for under what, 3.5M?

Quote:

I mean, in the examples you gave, you list a 17 year old kid willing to sign. Obviously he would - he's probably 2-3 years away from even making the majors, so he's really not eating up any FA years in that case.

If not for the commish locking in the years at 6 I would have been able to get 8-10 years. Point being that without a "house rule", I could very easily get a bargain on his contract. There's some risk he won't pan out, sure, but it's low enough that it's a risk worth taking, as the success means I can have a middle of the order guy at a premium defensive position for 2-3M during FA years. I've pretty routinely had 6-10 players at various stages (1-8 years of service) making under 2-3M. Makes building a team very easy when nearly half your team costs 20-30M, with many of those being core players. And a budget of, 150M.

Quote:

Even guys in the majors, they can get hurt, they can fail, etc... So yeah, your can't miss guys like Gallo won't sign.

Gallo's basically the only guy that it didn't worked for, though. I've got plenty of other "can't miss" guys who are in the majors who are happy to sign bargain deals, if not for playing with house rules.

Quote:

But even if your Nick Martinez example, a starter with a BB/9 above 3 and a K/9 hovering around 5 often won't even stick around in the majors after a few years. Gaining some security in a guaranteed deal is not necessarily a bad thing.

Hey, if you don't want to change it, I'm more than happy to take advantage of the financial system. Makes my life easier knowing I can get players at bargain deals. Yeah, some players will flame out, but the successes and having guys through their prime making under $5M (and usually under 3.5) while they routinely have 4-8 WAR seasons in their FA years and prime make my life a lot easier as a GM.

The system is better than it was before, so kudos for that, but it still could use some improvements. Just because Gallo doesn't sign these deals doesn't justify other players (even in MLB quickstart) taking some of the deals they do. Getting above average, average, or even backup players signed for long periods at discount prices makes building a team far too easy. There's always risk in long term deals, but with low AAV it's not a significant risk. I think maybe that needs to be looked at further, as it's too easy to extend players pre-arbitration.

ThePretender · 07-02-2016, 11:35 AM

If you'd prefer other examples...

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet Aaron Sanchez is willing to take 5 X 5. Which would take 1 pre arb year, 3 arb years, and 1 FA year. His 2015 numbers weren't quite good, but his 2016 numbers should be, and he's got front of the rotation potential, and close to that. Why would he give up a FA deal for 5M? Why would he give up arb years for that? That's only a 2.2M raise over projected arb.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet Roberto Osuna is as of today, an elite closer. I could turn him into a mid rotation SP, or even a #2 SP. He needs little development for either, is a stud now, coming off a stud year. He signed for 3.6M for 5 years, and as it doesn't take affect until 2017, I've bought out a FA year as well.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet - Devon Travis needs little development, and he's 60/72 as of today. And he's willing to sign 5 years, for 5M, buying out one FA year.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet Pompey is willing to do 29.4 M over 6 - or just under 5M a year. Now, he's not as ready as Sanchez, but a 677 OPS (or what you editor claims he is now) with solid D in CF is easily 1.5-2 WAR. Factor in future development, and I've essentially got him signed to his current MLB minimum, and 6 year deal (buying out one FA year) for 30M over 7 years. For a guy who is likely in years 1-2 to be around 2 WAR, and could potentially be 3-4 WAR for the remaining 4-5 years, is quite the bargain.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet - He demands 82/8, or 10M AAV. I did 56/7, or 8M a year. At least he's getting better AAV than the other guys, though it buys 4 arb, and 3 FA. This is probably still far from a fair deal, though interesting that he'd demand 82/8 and drop to 57/7 (essentially valuing the extra year @ 25M). Probably should demand a bit more in all honesty for the 3 FA and 4 arb years (he super twos). I'd think 80M over 7 years is probably fair given the risks in a long term deal.

Also, sidenote, Gallo would do Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet, which is the identical deal for Stroman. The obvious issue with that being Gallo has 45 days of service, and Stro has 1 year, 148 years. So actually, I was wrong. Stroman is being given a crappy deal here, if a guy who will cover fewer arb/FA years will accept the same deal as Stro. Especially since Gallo isn't MLB ready, and Stro is. You can justify why Gallo would do this as he's not a guarantee to make it, but Stro should be pulling in 80-90M easy between 4 arb and 3 FA years.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet not a stud by any definition, but a LOOGY nonetheless. Willing to give up 2 Arb years and 3 FA years for 1.3M. A LOOGY might not have that much value, but he certainly shouldn't want to forfeit 3 years of FA for 1.3M a year.

Are you starting to see the problem I am? It's very easy to buy out cheap FA years when you know when to make extensions. You can do it with top tier guys, middle tier, or lesser players. For virtually every player it's easy to manipulate the financial system to get cheap (5M or lower AAV) deals that will buy out FA years that are not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. Even Stro/Gallo get pretty great deals, in all honesty. Yes, players could decline, get injured, or not further develop, but even if all these guys don't develop further, they're still on bargain contracts. Even if Pompey is nothing more than a bench bat, 5M for him is a bargain. Sanchez as is, is a bargain @ 5M. Osuna @ 3.6M even if you don't think he can start (I do, though). It's way too easy to get a deal on players, and that has a huge affect on competing with others. If Osuna/Travis/Sanchez/Pompey cost me 20M during their arb years, instead of what should more likely be 30-40M, that frees up a ton of money for me to spend on FA or other players.

The benefits here significantly outweigh the risks.

My suggestion, part of the problem is players should assume that the contract is service year +1. So if they show up as 1 year service, like Osuna, for extension purposes they should assume the new deal starts @ 2 years. That's part of the problem. He only has 1 year of service, so he thinks, great, 5 years takes me to FA! Except the 5 year deal starts next year, when he's likely to have 2 years service, thus buying out a cheap FA year. The other problem is that they're signing ridiculous deals. Players don't get valued properly in arb. Osuna shows as 1.1M for arb. No wonder he'd sign for 3.6M even buying out a FA year. He thinks he's getting a significant raise. He's not. An elite CL should be closer to 6-8M in arb, not 1.1M.

There's still work to do. Like I said, you made progress, but even in quickstart there are far too many examples of guys who can be abused in the financial system. It's very broken and I certainly hope you will continue to work on it.

Matt Arnold · 07-07-2016, 01:21 PM

We can certainly have another look through and tweak things.

ThePretender · 07-07-2016, 08:40 PM

Thanks for taking a look at it, I appreciate it

.

RchW · 07-07-2016, 08:47 PM

I was wondering what I was missing in this discussion. Got it now. Play fictional.

Hoiles · 07-08-2016, 01:29 AM

I have some house rules for trading even if setting it to very hard makes trades impossible 95% of the time. Sometimes the AI severely undervalues their players for whatever reason (e.g. decent starter relegated to bullpen duty, useful 4th outfielder) and you can get them for your most hopeless prospect. When that happens I do take advantage of it but smooth things out a bit by sending a 1.5 player or prospect the other way. Another one is to not trade away any players I'm going to non-tender after the season ends; the AI sometimes ends up non-tendering them anyways so it would be an exploit. Also, to avoid hoarding I don't trade away any free agents signed from other teams until at least July (I think there is a real-life MLB rule similar to this one).

07-01-2016, 09:55 PM	#25
BigRed75 Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2,423	I saw the word "reddit" and immediately disregarded it. That's my house rule. __________________ Mainline team SPTT team Was not a Snag fan...until I saw the fallout once he was gone and realized what a good job he was actually doing. - Ty Cobb

07-02-2016, 11:35 AM	#28
ThePretender All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,331	If you'd prefer other examples... Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet Aaron Sanchez is willing to take 5 X 5. Which would take 1 pre arb year, 3 arb years, and 1 FA year. His 2015 numbers weren't quite good, but his 2016 numbers should be, and he's got front of the rotation potential, and close to that. Why would he give up a FA deal for 5M? Why would he give up arb years for that? That's only a 2.2M raise over projected arb. Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet Roberto Osuna is as of today, an elite closer. I could turn him into a mid rotation SP, or even a #2 SP. He needs little development for either, is a stud now, coming off a stud year. He signed for 3.6M for 5 years, and as it doesn't take affect until 2017, I've bought out a FA year as well. Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet - Devon Travis needs little development, and he's 60/72 as of today. And he's willing to sign 5 years, for 5M, buying out one FA year. Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet Pompey is willing to do 29.4 M over 6 - or just under 5M a year. Now, he's not as ready as Sanchez, but a 677 OPS (or what you editor claims he is now) with solid D in CF is easily 1.5-2 WAR. Factor in future development, and I've essentially got him signed to his current MLB minimum, and 6 year deal (buying out one FA year) for 30M over 7 years. For a guy who is likely in years 1-2 to be around 2 WAR, and could potentially be 3-4 WAR for the remaining 4-5 years, is quite the bargain. Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet - He demands 82/8, or 10M AAV. I did 56/7, or 8M a year. At least he's getting better AAV than the other guys, though it buys 4 arb, and 3 FA. This is probably still far from a fair deal, though interesting that he'd demand 82/8 and drop to 57/7 (essentially valuing the extra year @ 25M). Probably should demand a bit more in all honesty for the 3 FA and 4 arb years (he super twos). I'd think 80M over 7 years is probably fair given the risks in a long term deal. Also, sidenote, Gallo would do Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet, which is the identical deal for Stroman. The obvious issue with that being Gallo has 45 days of service, and Stro has 1 year, 148 years. So actually, I was wrong. Stroman is being given a crappy deal here, if a guy who will cover fewer arb/FA years will accept the same deal as Stro. Especially since Gallo isn't MLB ready, and Stro is. You can justify why Gallo would do this as he's not a guarantee to make it, but Stro should be pulling in 80-90M easy between 4 arb and 3 FA years. Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet not a stud by any definition, but a LOOGY nonetheless. Willing to give up 2 Arb years and 3 FA years for 1.3M. A LOOGY might not have that much value, but he certainly shouldn't want to forfeit 3 years of FA for 1.3M a year. Are you starting to see the problem I am? It's very easy to buy out cheap FA years when you know when to make extensions. You can do it with top tier guys, middle tier, or lesser players. For virtually every player it's easy to manipulate the financial system to get cheap (5M or lower AAV) deals that will buy out FA years that are not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. Even Stro/Gallo get pretty great deals, in all honesty. Yes, players could decline, get injured, or not further develop, but even if all these guys don't develop further, they're still on bargain contracts. Even if Pompey is nothing more than a bench bat, 5M for him is a bargain. Sanchez as is, is a bargain @ 5M. Osuna @ 3.6M even if you don't think he can start (I do, though). It's way too easy to get a deal on players, and that has a huge affect on competing with others. If Osuna/Travis/Sanchez/Pompey cost me 20M during their arb years, instead of what should more likely be 30-40M, that frees up a ton of money for me to spend on FA or other players. The benefits here significantly outweigh the risks. My suggestion, part of the problem is players should assume that the contract is service year +1. So if they show up as 1 year service, like Osuna, for extension purposes they should assume the new deal starts @ 2 years. That's part of the problem. He only has 1 year of service, so he thinks, great, 5 years takes me to FA! Except the 5 year deal starts next year, when he's likely to have 2 years service, thus buying out a cheap FA year. The other problem is that they're signing ridiculous deals. Players don't get valued properly in arb. Osuna shows as 1.1M for arb. No wonder he'd sign for 3.6M even buying out a FA year. He thinks he's getting a significant raise. He's not. An elite CL should be closer to 6-8M in arb, not 1.1M. There's still work to do. Like I said, you made progress, but even in quickstart there are far too many examples of guys who can be abused in the financial system. It's very broken and I certainly hope you will continue to work on it. Last edited by ThePretender; 07-02-2016 at 12:01 PM.

07-07-2016, 08:47 PM	#31
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I was wondering what I was missing in this discussion. Got it now. Play fictional. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

07-01-2016, 04:15 PM	#24
Up here in Canada Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 181	I'm trying to get my settings in place before I fully backup the league. Some of my concerns were the result of this piece: https://www.reddit.com/r/OOTP/commen...and_trick_ive/ I will look over that settings thread as well. I am adjusting the NABA quickstart for my league of choice.

07-07-2016, 01:21 PM	#29
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 16,248	We can certainly have another look through and tweak things.

07-07-2016, 08:40 PM	#30
ThePretender All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,331	Thanks for taking a look at it, I appreciate it .

07-08-2016, 01:29 AM	#32
Hoiles All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 574	I have some house rules for trading even if setting it to very hard makes trades impossible 95% of the time. Sometimes the AI severely undervalues their players for whatever reason (e.g. decent starter relegated to bullpen duty, useful 4th outfielder) and you can get them for your most hopeless prospect. When that happens I do take advantage of it but smooth things out a bit by sending a 1.5 player or prospect the other way. Another one is to not trade away any players I'm going to non-tender after the season ends; the AI sometimes ends up non-tendering them anyways so it would be an exploit. Also, to avoid hoarding I don't trade away any free agents signed from other teams until at least July (I think there is a real-life MLB rule similar to this one).