You're intentionally walking HIM?

Number4 · 05-19-2016, 06:40 PM

Runner on second, 2 out, my backup backup catcher comes up. Can't hit at all, however I wanted to have him for the time of the injury on the roster, better having a guy with .050 and a great glove than .100 and a bad glove I figured.

My next guy up is a pitcher, who I intentionally started in the interleague game because he's good with the bat.

Yeah, they walked him to get "to" the pitcher.

RchW · 05-19-2016, 07:18 PM

So the problem is?

Padreman · 05-19-2016, 07:27 PM

???????

IncognitoNL · 05-19-2016, 07:28 PM

Setting up the double play, perhaps, if there was someone on third. Otherwise, a rare glitch.

Padreman · 05-19-2016, 07:36 PM

But you said 2 outs already

IncognitoNL · 05-19-2016, 07:38 PM

Whoops. That's what I get for staying up past my European bedtime. Completely missed that part.

RchW · 05-19-2016, 07:40 PM

Force at any base. Good hitting pitcher or not it's a reasonable strategy. What inning? Top bottom?

redranger · 05-19-2016, 07:42 PM

Man on second, two outs with pitcher coming up. Walk to setup a force at any base, maybe?

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Number4 · 05-19-2016, 09:01 PM

Look, no way is this anything of a reasonable strategy. My catcher is basically hitting like a pitcher, my pitcher - like a catcher.
Take the position labels away, and think which situation would you prefer: a .050 hitter at bat with a runner on second or a .180 hitter at bat with a runner on both first and second?
Then adding, in the likely case that my .050 hitter makes an out, the next inning is lead off by the .180 pitcher instead of my .400 leadoff hitter.

I've noticed many times that the AI is to rigid when a pitcher is coming up in choosing its strategy - not every pitcher is an automatic out, or preferable to the #8 hitter. In my case, it was not even close.

redranger · 05-19-2016, 09:05 PM

Do you have your pitcher batting 8th and your .050 hitter batting ninth? If no, why not then?

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Number4 · 05-19-2016, 09:09 PM

I have the worst batter hitting 8th, as I should. It happens to be this time the catcher, instead of the usual pitcher. Not only makes it sense because the worst hitter is in the proper spot, the eight, I also have my pitcher coming up later, which delays pinch-hitting (I prefer not to pinch-hit for my catcher, which would break up my starting catchers rest)

jbergey22 · 05-19-2016, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IncognitoNL

Setting up the double play, perhaps, if there was someone on third. Otherwise, a rare glitch.

Teams dont walk hitters to set up double plays. If they do they arent going to win many games. Extra runners on base = extra runs.

Imagine how many extra runs a team would give up over the course of a season if everytime a hitter got on 2nd or 3rd with 0 or 1 out they walk a hitter to try for the double play?

Number4 · 05-19-2016, 10:30 PM

Factoring in the double plays is of course an factor in the decision-making process whether it is worth it or not to walk a guy.
The other factor is the quality of the batter at bat and on deck, which might be modified by factors like platoon split.

If you think the chance of a double play and the worse batter at bat offsets the additional runner at first, then a intentional walk is the correct decision.

In my case, there was neither a double play possibilty, nor was the batter on deck worse - he was actually thrice as good. It's like walking some average .220 nobody and let the .350 MVP bat. It is probably even worse.

I understand that the AI is probably coded to see a pitcher as the guy to get to, he is it mostly, however well-hitting pitchers are a thing even in realistic settings. Zack Greinke or Madison Bumgarner, Noah Syndergaard will outhit some backup catchers, shortstops etc.

NCBeachBum · 05-19-2016, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Teams dont walk hitters to set up double plays. If they do they arent going to win many games. Extra runners on base = extra runs.

Imagine how many extra runs a team would give up over the course of a season if everytime a hitter got on 2nd or 3rd with 0 or 1 out they walk a hitter to try for the double play?

Except that it happens fairly regularly in real life (note, regularly does not equal often). Hell, Erick Aybar has a .207 OBP, .205 SLG, and -1.6 WAR this year for the hapless Braves... and was walked last week to set up a double play.

jbergey22 · 05-19-2016, 10:45 PM

Was it to "set up the double play" like some announcers will claim or was it because the hitter they walked was much better than the hitter on deck? Announcers like to claim things like "set up the double play" when in reality it is because the hitter on deck is a worse hitter than the hitter they are walking. Double plays happen maybe 1-2 times a game so it is risky giving up base runners trying to make that 2-3 percent play happen.

RchW · 05-19-2016, 10:52 PM

There is no DP here.

MrBojangles · 05-20-2016, 01:23 AM

Maybe their scout rates your catcher as a better hitter than your scout does? Maybe they see much more HR potential than your scout does?

fcabanski · 05-20-2016, 01:37 AM

The computer manager will walk someone to get to the pitcher even if the pitcher is a terrific hitter.

Number4 · 05-20-2016, 10:09 AM

Yeah, I remember once having a true two-way pitcher, batting forth. On the days he was on the mound, I used no DH, so he was batting forth as pitcher.

He was often intentionally walked to, but that was no surprise, as he was worse than the #3 hitter. However any time he came to bat with less than 2 outs and runners on, the opposing manager was playing the corners in, as if I would be sacrifice bunting with my cleanup hitter.

The game usually calculates this things for different position players, it does more or less sensible intentional walks, so why not use this routine also for the pitchers?
Managers do not intentionally walk to get to the guy on the mound, they do it to get to a guy weak with the bat, which almost, but only almost every time is the guy on the mound.

NCBeachBum · 05-20-2016, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Was it to "set up the double play" like some announcers will claim or was it because the hitter they walked was much better than the hitter on deck? Announcers like to claim things like "set up the double play" when in reality it is because the hitter on deck is a worse hitter than the hitter they are walking. Double plays happen maybe 1-2 times a game so it is risky giving up base runners trying to make that 2-3 percent play happen.

He's having the worst season in the history of major league baseball (literally... on pace for over 5.5 negative WAR, and the record is 4.0, though obviously lack of playing time has saved some other guys from that fate). There is no one worse.

05-19-2016, 06:40 PM	#1
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	You're intentionally walking HIM? Runner on second, 2 out, my backup backup catcher comes up. Can't hit at all, however I wanted to have him for the time of the injury on the roster, better having a guy with .050 and a great glove than .100 and a bad glove I figured. My next guy up is a pitcher, who I intentionally started in the interleague game because he's good with the bat. Yeah, they walked him to get "to" the pitcher. Attached Images

05-19-2016, 07:18 PM	#2
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	So the problem is? __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

05-19-2016, 07:36 PM	#5
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,131	But you said 2 outs already __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

05-19-2016, 07:40 PM	#7
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Force at any base. Good hitting pitcher or not it's a reasonable strategy. What inning? Top bottom? __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

05-19-2016, 09:09 PM	#11
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	I have the worst batter hitting 8th, as I should. It happens to be this time the catcher, instead of the usual pitcher. Not only makes it sense because the worst hitter is in the proper spot, the eight, I also have my pitcher coming up later, which delays pinch-hitting (I prefer not to pinch-hit for my catcher, which would break up my starting catchers rest) Last edited by Number4; 05-19-2016 at 09:10 PM.

05-19-2016, 07:27 PM	#3
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,131	??????? __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

05-19-2016, 07:28 PM	#4
IncognitoNL Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 41	Setting up the double play, perhaps, if there was someone on third. Otherwise, a rare glitch.

05-19-2016, 07:38 PM	#6
IncognitoNL Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 41	Whoops. That's what I get for staying up past my European bedtime. Completely missed that part.

05-19-2016, 07:42 PM	#8
redranger All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 609	Man on second, two outs with pitcher coming up. Walk to setup a force at any base, maybe? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

05-19-2016, 09:01 PM	#9
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	Look, no way is this anything of a reasonable strategy. My catcher is basically hitting like a pitcher, my pitcher - like a catcher. Take the position labels away, and think which situation would you prefer: a .050 hitter at bat with a runner on second or a .180 hitter at bat with a runner on both first and second? Then adding, in the likely case that my .050 hitter makes an out, the next inning is lead off by the .180 pitcher instead of my .400 leadoff hitter. I've noticed many times that the AI is to rigid when a pitcher is coming up in choosing its strategy - not every pitcher is an automatic out, or preferable to the #8 hitter. In my case, it was not even close.

05-19-2016, 09:05 PM	#10
redranger All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 609	Do you have your pitcher batting 8th and your .050 hitter batting ninth? If no, why not then? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

05-19-2016, 10:30 PM	#13
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	Factoring in the double plays is of course an factor in the decision-making process whether it is worth it or not to walk a guy. The other factor is the quality of the batter at bat and on deck, which might be modified by factors like platoon split. If you think the chance of a double play and the worse batter at bat offsets the additional runner at first, then a intentional walk is the correct decision. In my case, there was neither a double play possibilty, nor was the batter on deck worse - he was actually thrice as good. It's like walking some average .220 nobody and let the .350 MVP bat. It is probably even worse. I understand that the AI is probably coded to see a pitcher as the guy to get to, he is it mostly, however well-hitting pitchers are a thing even in realistic settings. Zack Greinke or Madison Bumgarner, Noah Syndergaard will outhit some backup catchers, shortstops etc. Last edited by Number4; 05-19-2016 at 10:34 PM.

05-19-2016, 10:45 PM	#15
jbergey22 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,481	Was it to "set up the double play" like some announcers will claim or was it because the hitter they walked was much better than the hitter on deck? Announcers like to claim things like "set up the double play" when in reality it is because the hitter on deck is a worse hitter than the hitter they are walking. Double plays happen maybe 1-2 times a game so it is risky giving up base runners trying to make that 2-3 percent play happen. Last edited by jbergey22; 05-19-2016 at 10:47 PM.

05-19-2016, 10:52 PM	#16
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	There is no DP here. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

05-20-2016, 01:23 AM	#17
MrBojangles All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: low and inside Posts: 568	Maybe their scout rates your catcher as a better hitter than your scout does? Maybe they see much more HR potential than your scout does?

05-20-2016, 01:37 AM	#18
fcabanski Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 170	The computer manager will walk someone to get to the pitcher even if the pitcher is a terrific hitter.

05-20-2016, 10:09 AM	#19
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	Yeah, I remember once having a true two-way pitcher, batting forth. On the days he was on the mound, I used no DH, so he was batting forth as pitcher. He was often intentionally walked to, but that was no surprise, as he was worse than the #3 hitter. However any time he came to bat with less than 2 outs and runners on, the opposing manager was playing the corners in, as if I would be sacrifice bunting with my cleanup hitter. The game usually calculates this things for different position players, it does more or less sensible intentional walks, so why not use this routine also for the pitchers? Managers do not intentionally walk to get to the guy on the mound, they do it to get to a guy weak with the bat, which almost, but only almost every time is the guy on the mound.