Position disappeared

[diesel230]

Its mid August 2017 with my Yankees. Chase Headley has been the 3rd baseman since they acquired him in 2014. He was 60 at 3rd on a 20-80 scale. He has 1 error in 70 games this year. I start my next game and notice he now has no rating at 3rd base. He still has a 25 at 1st base and a 20 in Left field from a few games i was forced to play at.

Infield range, error and arm are 55,60,65. Turn dp is 25

OSA scouting still sees him as a 60 at 3rd base

Any reason why he went from an above average defensive 3rd baseman on August 8th to a complete butcher at the position on August 9th?

[sc_superstar]

IIRC he needs a 30 at turn DP to have a rating at 3B, he may not be a complete butcher yet, but watch the stats and ratings, they will decline quickly

[NoOne]

since it's likely just "turn DP," it won't make him a butcher. the feedback you see has to follow specific rules... think of his 3B rating in the same light as Overall and Potential - but with slightly higher correlation to success, relative to defense only.

[Number4]

Sorry, but no. Someone with no rating makes significantly more errors, and I don't have stats, but probably fields less balls that go as base hits. I fear for my veteran 3rd baseman too, who is a gold glover potential 3B, good range, great arm, few errors, but can't turn a DP. His fielding may decline for all I care, it should be good enough to play 3rd for the rest of his contract, but if the game decides that he can't turn a DP anymore and therefore suddenly isn't a 3B anymore, I'm probalby forced to move him to first.

This system of "if the ratings drop below a certain point, the player loses all experience" is frankly stupid, and leads to unrealistic situations. If I play a player at a certain position, I want him to become better there with time, not stay as bad as the first day out there, because one of his ratings is just below a threshold. Players with weaknesses are a thing, no one gets from "gold glover at third" to "never played a game at the hot corner" in the space of one rating adjustment.

[BigRed75]

I get what you're saying, and agree with you to an extent, but I would also point out the argument that says if a player can't turn a DP, he has no business being at third base, at least in the big leagues.

[NoOne]

"turn double play" is that just hte guy catching and "Turning" the play... the first guy just feeds it to the bag, that should be virtually no different than normal.

if not, yeah it might be an issue, but should not affect range. a slight increase in throwing errors, but shouldn't be hugely significant. it simply shouldn't affect fielding errors.

3b only requires a 30... just how often do they start DPs - and that's even if that is considered (starting as opposed to turning) as i postulate above. if it does include that portion it's misnamed.

https://www.google.com/search?q=turn...utf-8&oe=utf-8

it's silly to say sorry in this context. be assertive and just start expressing your argument. it's nothing personal.

[Number4]

No. If he can't start one, that would be a problem, but 3B? They don't turn DPs often.

And anyway, a guy with bad range, okay arm, bad-but enough turn DP rating WILL get his 3B rating, a guy with great range, great arm, bad-and-just-below the threshold-turn DP loses it.

Even if he was a replacement level scrub, it's still immersion breaking if he loses his great rating suddenly completly. But he's part of the heart of my lineup, along with a full-time DH and a 1B, so I would take bad defense at third, and a real team would too. But I'm not sure I could take "every day of the week defense like he was never before playing third in his life".

[diesel230]

I think its an issue when my starting third baseman, who has been very above average defensively, with only ONE error this year, on August 8th was still a solid defender and on August 9th will be a MAJOR liability on defense. All due to a DP rating he barely ever uses?

[bwburke94]

This issue is more associated with Adrian Beltre than Headley, but that's not the point.

The point is that because third basemen so rarely have to turn double plays, there should not be a Turn DP minimum for the position. This got brought up over two years ago, there really isn't any excuse to not fix this except laziness.

As for the original poster, it's perfectly fine to continue to play Headley at 3B. You might lose out on the occasional 5-3 double play, but it doesn't affect 5-4-3 at all.

[BigRed75]

I just took it to mean that "Turn DP" in the context of third basemen meant how good are they at starting double plays. In other words, the rating is more about participating in DPs rather than exclusively the bit in the middle.

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by BigRed75

I just took it to mean that "Turn DP" in the context of third basemen meant how good are they at starting double plays. In other words, the rating is more about participating in DPs rather than exclusively the bit in the middle.

In-engine, Turn DP only affects the turn in the middle.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

In-engine, Turn DP only affects the turn in the middle.

If that's the case, it's even more unreasonable that third basemen lose their position rating based on their Turn DP rating.

[Matt Arnold]

The 3B "turn DP" rating would come into effect for an "around the horn" DP. So if he's below the threshold, you'll see less DPs that he starts at the hot corner.

That doesn't impact the rest of his ratings, though. He should still make the same number of the rest of his plays, and the same number of errors, and you can probably still continue to play him at 3B and you won't notice a big drop-off in play.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The 3B "turn DP" rating would come into effect for an "around the horn" DP. So if he's below the threshold, you'll see less DPs that he starts at the hot corner.

That doesn't impact the rest of his ratings, though. He should still make the same number of the rest of his plays, and the same number of errors, and you can probably still continue to play him at 3B and you won't notice a big drop-off in play.

So in the game engine, Turn DP does not only affect the turn in the middle, correct?

Still seems odd that the 3B rating disappears all together when the Turn DP drops low. Makes more sense (to me) to just drop the 3B rating proportionally as the Turn DP rating drops.

[Number4]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The 3B "turn DP" rating would come into effect for an "around the horn" DP. So if he's below the threshold, you'll see less DPs that he starts at the hot corner.

That doesn't impact the rest of his ratings, though. He should still make the same number of the rest of his plays, and the same number of errors, and you can probably still continue to play him at 3B and you won't notice a big drop-off in play.

An unexperienced player does NOT make the same amount of plays, or amount of errors!

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by Number4

An unexperienced player does NOT make the same amount of plays, or amount of errors!

But he hasn't lost his experience at the position, he has simply lost an "overall" rating at it. We are likely too aggressive at removing ratings, especially in this case where the turn DP isn't really a "core" skill of a 3B, but in the above case, Headley would not be a "complete butcher" at the position despite the fact that his rating there is listed as 0.

[Number4]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

But he hasn't lost his experience at the position, he has simply lost an "overall" rating at it. We are likely too aggressive at removing ratings, especially in this case where the turn DP isn't really a "core" skill of a 3B, but in the above case, Headley would not be a "complete butcher" at the position despite the fact that his rating there is listed as 0.

Ah. For me, experience and overall rating were the same. That is at the very least unintuitive - if a player has 0 at 3B (never played there) and 0 at 3B (veteran who lost his rating), I expected them to be the same. Thanks for the clarification, that makes the system more workable, but I still believe this should be changed to a more intuitve system.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by Number4

Ah. For me, experience and overall rating were the same. That is at the very least unintuitive - if a player has 0 at 3B (never played there) and 0 at 3B (veteran who lost his rating), I expected them to be the same. Thanks for the clarification, that makes the system more workable, but I still believe this should be changed to a more intuitve system.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the problem the way the game currently handles it. I think most people would think the same way about a player with no rating at a position.

If a guy has worthwhile experience at a position, he should be no lower than a 20 on the 20-80 scale, assuming the related skills are present (even if they're all rated poorly). If a third baseman has significant experience and 50-plus at all infield skills, but Turn DP drops below 30, his rating at third should probably be no lower than 45. Under no circumstances should his rating disappear (unless he's shifted to a new, unrelated position and doesn't play third for a season or two).

[grmagne]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I think you hit the nail on the head with the problem the way the game currently handles it. I think most people would think the same way about a player with no rating at a position.

If a guy has worthwhile experience at a position, he should be no lower than a 20 on the 20-80 scale, assuming the related skills are present (even if they're all rated poorly). If a third baseman has significant experience and 50-plus at all infield skills, but Turn DP drops below 30, his rating at third should probably be no lower than 45. Under no circumstances should his rating disappear (unless he's shifted to a new, unrelated position and doesn't play third for a season or two).

I completely agree. I've always found it a bit bizarre that a player can completely lose his ability to play a position one day, even though he played it well the day before (and, often, throughout his whole career).

[ThePretender]

Originally Posted by grmagne

I completely agree. I've always found it a bit bizarre that a player can completely lose his ability to play a position one day, even though he played it well the day before (and, often, throughout his whole career).

Why is that bizarre? A decline in skills doesn't wait until the end of the season, allowing players to neatly play defence well one season and fall apart over the offseason. They can come quickly, and they can come suddenly.

Players can be injured in the middle of the season, and these injuries can permanently alter a player's ability, creating a physical decline. You can have the experience or knowledge to play a position, but if your body is breaking down, you can most definitely lose the skill to play a position overnight.

Even if you know what you should do to react to a play, if you physically are slower (ie less range), you won't be able to get to a ball you used to be able to catch, and therefore are no longer able to play.

I agree turn DP should lower the 3B position rating, but if a physical decline caused something like range/arm to decline to the point where they can't remotely play 3B, then I agree the skill should disappear.