A request to the developers: Add Females

[Hammercraft]

Originally Posted by The Game

She had a good rookie season, dont know why she is still in the minors.

She has 9 K, 9 BB, and 3 HR in 25 IP, her FIP is probably pretty bad

[OakDragon]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

This thread seriously needs to go away

If you went away, it would accomplish the same thing from your point of view and more of us would be happier than just you.

[joefromchicago]

As has already been mentioned, there would need to be some serious changes to the game in order to accommodate women players. In addition to the pronoun problem, it would be necessary to add namesets for female first names -- in effect, doubling the number of sets of first names. And because namesets are limited to 40, that would mean dropping half of the namesets currently in the game (and making women their own ethnicities, so there would have to be a male USA and a female USA in the world default file).

More importantly, the game's player creation and development models are based on male players, and there just aren't enough data out there to determine how the average female baseball player develops over time. So it's not just a question of changing a few pronouns and a few names. It would require a pretty massive overhaul of the game engine in order to cater to what is, it must be admitted, a fairly niche interest. I'd love to see women added to the game, but realistically, it'll never happen.

[italyprof]

Originally Posted by Statsman1

I do not generally chime in to these debates, because I find that ultimately, like it or not, The Wolf tends to be right. Not always in the WAY he voices his opinions, but the message behind the opinion tends to be correct. At least, in my view.

I do not particularly care about whether or not I get a FaceGen of a woman or a man - that is surface fluff and has nothing to do with how the game is played.

If I was going to endorse the idea, I would first look at the EFFECTS of having a female player in a league dominated by male players.

Let's assume, for instance, Markus has coded this game to create an ENTITY (let's be clear - every "player" in OOTP is a male either because nobody currently playing MLB is anything BUT male, or because there's a flag that says "M" instead of "F") that is 6'4", 230lbs and simply because this entity has these dimensions, it now has "POWER = 20". Therefore "it" can go through some algorithm that ultimately decides, this time, that "it" has hit the ball 480 feet, resulting in a home run.

If that same entity had the flag set to "F" and, every other thing being equal, could do the same thing...then all you need is a FaceGen that says, "If FLAG = F, then make femaie face, else make male face." Because there is no adverse effect to changing that flag - the gender flag is purely cosmetic, it had nothing to do with the results.

If, however, there is going to be an engine that says that women will never be 6'4", 230lbs and therefore WILL NEVER HAVE THE SAME POWER ratings as men, then what effect does that have? Can a woman who's 5'7", 145lbs (say, my wife) hit a ball 480 feet? Nope. Not if she hit it TWICE. So...would Markus' player creation engine give that woman a POWER of 20? Or would the WOMAN have to be 6'4", 230lbs too? How would that be put together?

This is an extreme example, you understand, but my point is this - having women in the game could simply be cosmetic - use the FaceGen to create female pictures, add some female names to the database and away you go.

But, duplicating the female form, if you will, would also have a dramatic effect on the overall game itself, and the player types that are created. If you are going to have female players, and those female players represent actual females, in terms of dimensions, and what those dimensions translate into, in terms of ratings...how could 99.9% of those women compare to male players? And would you draft them? If the goal of the game is to build the best team, why would you draft / trade for / recruit players that are weaker than their counterparts, simply because they are women?

Put another way - if someone like Mike Trout has top-level power, would you believe a young lady, 5'7'', 170lbs, could duplicate that power? How much belief are you willing to suspend for gender equality for the sake of....well, gender equality in a world that doesn't actually exist??

If you are going to create females in the universe, and these women are going to be as realistic as the male players, in terms of height, weight, speed, etc...can they compete with the men in this game's paradigm? I would submit that they cannot.

Women, on the whole, are NOT going to be the same calibre of player that men are. There is a reason there are no female players. Creating them simply by changing a gender flag is not "realistic" in that sense, and everyone should realize that. Creating actual female players that would bring to the game exactly what they would bring to the game in real life would be a waste of time for almost anyone.

Now - if you were going to create an all-female league / world, then you have something, but again, you can do that NOW cosmetically with a little manual work. From a historical standpoint, as someone mentioned, there were professional women's leagues, and while I don't actually pretend to know what that coding means, an all woman universe is NO different than an all male universe, practically speaking.

If I'm playing this game as a GM, why would I pick players, female or male, that were not good enough, regardless of what some gender flag is set to be. If women are going to be recreated in the same fashion that men are created in this universe, then what's the point?

And yes, I know women who have played video games, and I've never heard any of them say, "Jeez, I'd really love this baseball sim if there were women players in it."

So...I agree with Wolf. This concept offers NOTHING to the game, in practical, game-playing terms, and dedicating resources and such to making such a thing happen would be a waste of time that fells like it would ultimately satisfy next to nobody.

I bet if either or both of the (tennis) Williams sisters, or some of the professional women boxers or UFC athletes were trained to play baseball that they could hit some mean line drives and some long home runs. As long as Barry Bonds? Probably not, but then neither could Denny Doyle and that doesn't make him any less a man or a baseball player.

If you want historical realism and enjoy playing the 1940s, then the LACK of the All-American Girls Baseball Association is as glaring as the lack of the Negro Leagues in your historical world.

Some people here have brought up some technical issues involved in having female players. Not being enough of a tech person I will accept that some of this is probably true. So it is a commitment. To say that it is not worth it because there would not be enough people interested would be to prejudge a market none of us has actually researched in any serious way. Some of the objections are coming from somewhere else that is not to be encouraged.

So yes, it would be a good addition when it is possible. A lot of our daughters play baseball or softball, some may play professional baseball some day. So why not?

[The Game]

[QUOTE=italyprof;4018849]
If you want historical realism and enjoy playing the 1940s, then the LACK of the All-American Girls Baseball Association is as glaring as the lack of the Negro Leagues in your historical world.
[QUOTE]

OOTP doesn;t have Negro Leagues but i dont see anyone complaining. Also there is a AAGBL quickstart. Tex made all the uniforms for them. I played it for one season in my ABF league but it became to hard not to keep that league from signing male players who were released or keeping the PCL & ABF from signing women. Large Marge went on to become a MGR in the ABF.
Like just about anything in OOTP there is always a workaround, even if it takes some imagination.

[italyprof]

The Game, no one is "complaining". People have requested in a forum for requesting things for future OOTP versions. I am not aware that anyone said "stop complaining, how dare you ask for historical minor leagues" or whatever. I think most people think that a) it is very cool that Negro League players are available through the Spritze database (thank you Spritze) and b) that it would be cool if there were Negro Leagues included.

My use of the word "LACK" in caps referred NOT to OOTP, its makers or program, but to anyone who sets up a 1940s baseball world that wants maximum realism but does not include Negro Leagues and the All-American Girls League, unless they don't actually want to play those leagues, which is fine. But my point is that it is analogous to not having the Negro League players at that time. That is all.

I think at least a considerable number of people playing the game think it would be cool if the All-American Girls Baseball Association, a historic baseball league that was even the subject of a very successful major motion picture, were included. No one here has complained that it is not included, but it would be cool. And it would be cool if one had the option of female players for fictional leagues. No one is suggesting that you or anyone else be required to use them or play with them in your leagues without having an option. Still not clear why some people seem upset or offended by a request by others playing the game. Except, really it is clear why. Sigh.

[Statsman1]

Absurdo ad reductio alert...

There are a number of things that would be "neat" and "enhance the realism of the simulation" that I'm sure could be done, but that doesn't mean I think they should be done. But the ignorant and judgemental contempt coming at, and coming from, people about this topic is awesomely fascinating.

So, because snap judgements and blanket condemnations are causing me to completely self-evaluate, I humbly submit that:

Because I don't think it's a good idea for OOTP to have 3-D tornadoes trashing my custom stadium, flooding my dugouts and forcing my team to relocate, I now know that I hate Mother Nature.

Because I don't think it's a good idea for OOTP to replace the umpires and implement Questec, I realize that I hate technology.

Because I do think it's a good idea for OOTP to add a feature that shows me when my relief pitchers are warmed up without having to go a different screen, I have to accept that I hate...well, clicking my mouse.

Because I do think it's a good idea for OOTP to add a feature to allow me to specify what I'd like back in a trade when I shop a player, I sadly accept that I hate...using a scrollbar. And reading.

Some people, myself included, don't think adding females to the OOTP world is the most wonderful idea ever. I did NOT say that adding female-only leagues, especially those that have played in the past, was a bad idea - in fact, I think it's a great idea, in and of itself. From a historical standpoint, yes, there were women ballplayers, and they have every right to be included in the historical databases, just as including the Negro Leagues and any other league that you could get your hands on.

But the idea that integrating (yes, THAT word) females into the realm of modern-day professional major-league baseball and, in the interest of that same realism everyone wants out of OOTP, what that entails, is NOT something I support, when there are way more things I feel that OOTP could spend their time implementing, fixing and tweaking!

That doesn't make me, or anyone else who feels that way, a misogynist. So chill out, O Ye Judgemental Types who would condemn me as anti-woman. I have only one wife. That doesn't mean I hate Mormon Fundamentalists.

[Antonin]

Years and years ago someone who used to frequent this forum posted a rant about fictional leagues and how absurd it was for someone to want to start a league in someplace like Ghana.

I promptly created a league in Ghana, just for fun, and have continued to play it through several OOTP versions. It continues to be one of my favorite leagues.

It's my game, and I just love the fact that I can play it my way. I love the fact that others can, too. Some of my favorite dynasties to read about here have been those set in imaginary countries or alternate history versions of our own world.

I love this game!

[dewelar]

Relevant.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by dewelar

No, but you should probably post them in their own thread instead of hijacking one that's about something else . I do support having the 7-inning option, but I don't recall demanding anything, so no cookie for you.

P.S. Did you even read the article?

I thought the article was drivel. Read about as much as I could stomach. Gibbons comments were silly and he should have chosen his words better. But, the part about being forced to play softball is all PC garbage. Not sure about when you played, but when I played junior high and high school ball, you had to go out for the team. You either made it or you were cut. I'm sure some of the kids that were cut loved baseball just as much as the woman that wrote that article. I bet some of them still do. I played right up to the time I graduated. Would have loved to have played college ball. But, reality said I wasn't good enough. So, I guess reality steered me towards softball as well....and eventually towards computer baseball sims. Life is so unfair. The whole idea that there are tons and tons of young girls that would be playing baseball at the high school or higher level if they weren't forced against their will into playing softball, is just hogwash. But, if it makes you feel better to believe it good for you.

[dewelar]

Originally Posted by David Watts

But, if it makes you feel better to believe it good for you.

I posted the link to this article because a lot of people have been saying that adding the ability to properly represent female personnel wouldn't bring in new customers. Perhaps not, but it's not because those customers wouldn't enjoy the game -- it's because the game's culture as a whole ruins their enjoyment of it. In the long term, however, it would have more positive impact than simply slamming the door in our faces as you and others would do.

I never played baseball, as I'm legally blind. I can see well enough to play slow-pitch softball, which I did whenever I got the chance. I loved the game, but I was abused because I sucked, from actually getting beaten up in grammar school right up through being verbally berated when I was a reserve on the pickup team at the K-Mart where I worked to put myself through college. The problem is that I was one of the few people willing to be on the reserve list, so they were stuck with me, and they made no bones about the fact that they resented me for that -- not the people who could have played but didn't, but me personally, without whom they would have had to forfeit games if I wasn't willing to show up. I sucked it up, because that's what I was told I had to do to "be a man" (bleh, whatever), and I got better -- good enough that I went through a whole season without striking out -- but I lost respect for a lot of my coworkers over that situation.

As Jack Elliott said, baseball is a game, and games are supposed to be fun. One thing that would increase the amount of fun I would experience would be to have female personnel properly represented, even if it's just off-the-field. As for the attitude you displayed above, it's the same attitude as those of the people who put me down and told me I shouldn't do something fun. But, if it makes you feel better about yourself to put people like me and people like the author down, good for you.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by dewelar

I posted the link to this article because a lot of people have been saying that adding the ability to properly represent female personnel wouldn't bring in new customers. Perhaps not, but it's not because those customers wouldn't enjoy the game -- it's because the game's culture as a whole ruins their enjoyment of it. In the long term, however, it would have more positive impact than simply slamming the door in our faces as you and others would do.

I never played baseball, as I'm legally blind. I can see well enough to play slow-pitch softball, which I did whenever I got the chance. I loved the game, but I was abused because I sucked, from actually getting beaten up in grammar school right up through being verbally berated when I was a reserve on the pickup team at the K-Mart where I worked to put myself through college. The problem is that I was one of the few people willing to be on the reserve list, so they were stuck with me, and they made no bones about the fact that they resented me for that -- not the people who could have played but didn't, but me personally, without whom they would have had to forfeit games if I wasn't willing to show up. I sucked it up, because that's what I was told I had to do to "be a man" (bleh, whatever), and I got better -- good enough that I went through a whole season without striking out -- but I lost respect for a lot of my coworkers over that situation.

As Jack Elliott said, baseball is a game, and games are supposed to be fun. One thing that would increase the amount of fun I would experience would be to have female personnel properly represented, even if it's just off-the-field. As for the attitude you displayed above, it's the same attitude as those of the people who put me down and told me I shouldn't do something fun. But, if it makes you feel better about yourself to put people like me and people like the author down, good for you.

I didn't put you down. I don't know you from Batman. I also have never said anything one way or the other about Markus adding the ability to have women's leagues. I do know it would take work. Just like it would take work to make 7 inning games available. We have a guy that can pitch with both arms pitching for the Blue Jays, so I would be silly to say it's 100% impossible to believe a woman will ever play professional baseball. If Markus thinks he can grow his game by adding women, he should do it. This whole issue reminds me of the graphics arguments that used to spring up every year.

[David Watts]

Just wanted to offer an apology to everyone for my attitude displayed yesterday. Should have just kept my mouth shut. This is one of those topics that I should know better than to address. So, sorry if I came off as a jackhat. Peace.

[Statsman1]

This topic certainly spun out of control, and I don't think people necessarily mean to belittle or insult people when they express their opinions about the subject that started the discussion. It's obvious that extrapolating singular points of view into a complete character summary, no matter what the topic, just leads to hostility and misunderstandings, and life's too short to get into in-depth philosophical debates with Internet strangers. We agree, or we don't agree, but we will never know the person we're debating with to the point where we can confidently state what that person is all about. Good or bad. Period. Nobody who contributed to this discussion knows me personally, or what makes me the person I am. And I wouldn't presume to state that I completely know any of you either. Other than we all play OOTP, I don't know anything about you, and you don't know anything about me*.

I think we can all agree on 3 things, and let this one end.

1. Someone introduced the idea that OOTP have females incorporated into it.
2. Some people think that idea is great. Their reasons are their own.
3. Some people do not think that idea is great. Their reasons are their own.

I'm sure Markus and co. have all the information they need about this by now.

*except maybe my posts are too long

[Skadan]

I've been playing since OOTP 6 but haven't played in quite a few years. I just found this thread because I was wondering if OOTP had added female players so I did a quick Google search and this turned up. (My niece is a gamer and baseball player and we were talking about OOTP this weekend and she asked.) I don't have a whole lot to add, I got my answer. No, they haven't. Which is fine. It actually is a make or break feature for a purchase for me this time but I doubt that's very common. It has, however, been requested repeatedly since at least 2005. And I got a little nostalgic because some of the exact same arguments against it have been made on this forum for 10 years now. So I'll just say this:

1) Your made up statistics on how many players would use it are no better than statistics I could make up on how many people would. It's not a convincing argument.

2) Hobbits are imaginary. Women actually exist. I know that may be a mind blower for some gamers, but I swear it's true. I've seen them.

Have fun guys

[Poweshow]

Originally Posted by Skadan

I've been playing since OOTP 6 but haven't played in quite a few years. I just found this thread because I was wondering if OOTP had added female players so I did a quick Google search and this turned up. (My niece is a gamer and baseball player and we were talking about OOTP this weekend and she asked.) I don't have a whole lot to add, I got my answer. No, they haven't. Which is fine. It actually is a make or break feature for a purchase for me this time but I doubt that's very common. It has, however, been requested repeatedly since at least 2005. And I got a little nostalgic because some of the exact same arguments against it have been made on this forum for 10 years now. So I'll just say this:

1) Your made up statistics on how many players would use it are no better than statistics I could make up on how many people would. It's not a convincing argument.

2) Hobbits are imaginary. Women actually exist. I know that may be a mind blower for some gamers, but I swear it's true. I've seen them.

Have fun guys

I've been requesting Promotion/Relegation leagues since OOTP 4, it has now turned into a game breaker for me and I will not buy OOTP until progress is made on that front (still haven't purchased this years version). So hop in line, brother/sister

[The Game]

OOTP mirrors MLB and its affiliates, not imaginary leagues. I have not played historical yet on 17, has the NNL been added in 1920? Do stars of the Negro Leagues appear in the game prior to their appearance in affiliated minor leagues? The fact that I can create a league on Endor & Coruscant means nothing. i have to use my imagination to see a 4'7 Ewok at the dish, not hard to imagine All The Way Mae stealing 2nd. I am all for Markus coding in women but their are far more important thing that need to be added 1st. Relegation is not one of them either, this isn't soccer.

[Green & Gold Heart]

Originally Posted by Charley575

You know, there's really no reason why women cannot play professional baseball. The problem is they are discouraged from doing so. High school, college, they force them into softball.

Ding ding ding ding ding!!

Originally Posted by Pirates

Can someone explain to me what the huge fascination is, in having women play in a men's game?
Where you not loved as a child?

I'm sorry but I'm sick and tired of being told the game I love is not for me.

Originally Posted by David Watts

I thought the article was drivel. Read about as much as I could stomach. Gibbons comments were silly and he should have chosen his words better. But, the part about being forced to play softball is all PC garbage. Not sure about when you played, but when I played junior high and high school ball, you had to go out for the team. You either made it or you were cut. I'm sure some of the kids that were cut loved baseball just as much as the woman that wrote that article. I bet some of them still do. I played right up to the time I graduated. Would have loved to have played college ball. But, reality said I wasn't good enough. So, I guess reality steered me towards softball as well....and eventually towards computer baseball sims. Life is so unfair. The whole idea that there are tons and tons of young girls that would be playing baseball at the high school or higher level if they weren't forced against their will into playing softball, is just hogwash. But, if it makes you feel better to believe it good for you.

No one held a gun to my head at 11 years old and told me to play softball. But I did try out for baseball, and the coaches and the powers that be took my aunt aside and told her to encourage me to play softball because baseball just isn't for girls. I did play softball but quit after 8th grade because my heart just wasn't in it. I love baseball, not softball.

I wish this organization existed when I was a kid but I'm glad so many girls and getting opportunities that I didn't have: baseballforall

[Aumakua]

First off, I plan on putting a LIMITED number of females in my game, but each one will be created by me (facegen to size and stat potentials) only thing that will be messed up is the he/she thing, no big deal. Point is that its possible in the current game...


Second, the female league thing is the most valid point to the argument of having the female option in the game


third, to all those saying females wouldn't be able to compete, hit homers... that is complete BS, a female that starts playing baseball at age 5, is 5'9+ 150lbs+, muscular (yes that is possible) could easily hit a homerun, science says so (bat speed plus pitch speed...). The choice of other sports and sexism in the US for the majority of baseball's history is the reason they aren't playing baseball at higher levels. Baseball is one of the only non contact professional sports (and golf, but driver distance limits females in that as its too important of a factor) and because of that it would be possible for a female to play professionally against males. Take the best 10 female "athletes" in the world, have them playing baseball since the age of 5 and I bet they would be in MLB right now... (I do agree positions would probably be limited due to arm strength, but defensive ability wouldn't be)


Just sayin

[pilight]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

As has already been mentioned, there would need to be some serious changes to the game in order to accommodate women players. In addition to the pronoun problem, it would be necessary to add namesets for female first names -- in effect, doubling the number of sets of first names. And because namesets are limited to 40, that would mean dropping half of the namesets currently in the game (and making women their own ethnicities, so there would have to be a male USA and a female USA in the world default file).

Title Bout includes women and has its namefile in the same format as OOTP. It is also defaulted to 40 namesets. That game managed to be programmed for 40 male and 40 female sets, so OOTP should be adjustable to accommodate.