"Refuse minors assignment" only works for human players

[atl_braves]

This was something that I noticed in last year's game, and is still around in OOTP 17. If a human player tries to demote a veteran who has the right to refuse a demotion, the feature will work, and he will refuse. At that point you have to release or trade him if you want him off the roster.

For CPU teams, the feature doesn't work: after clearing waivers, veterans with the right to refuse a demotion invariably get sent to the minors anyway.

I'm not sure if this is a bug or oversight, or if it was more complicated to implement for CPU teams than the developers though was worth the time. If the latter is true, then I can understand and deal with it, but I'm just looking for some clarification here.

[PSUColonel]

I would say it's a bug....but hey that's me..if this is in fact happening. The only thing I can say though...not all players who can refuse, do...so make sure that's not the case also

[texasmame]

Either way, needs to be a level playing field. One or both can face refusal but not either.

[Hoiles]

Last version at least, if you reduced the DFA days from 10 to 3, players on AI teams actually did refuse demotions (and were released). I mentioned this and apparently it's a legacy bug, not sure if it's still around.

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by Hoiles

Last version at least, if you reduced the DFA days from 10 to 3, players on AI teams actually did refuse demotions (and were released). I mentioned this and apparently it's a legacy bug, not sure if it's still around.

Hmm, I will try this. That reducing the DFA period makes the feature work pretty much confirms that this is a bug-type of thing. Veterans that have the right to refuse a demotion should always exercise it, reflecting reality.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by atl_braves

This was something that I noticed in last year's game, and is still around in OOTP 17. If a human player tries to demote a veteran who has the right to refuse a demotion, the feature will work, and he will refuse. At that point you have to release or trade him if you want him off the roster.

For CPU teams, the feature doesn't work: after clearing waivers, veterans with the right to refuse a demotion invariably get sent to the minors anyway.

I'm not sure if this is a bug or oversight, or if it was more complicated to implement for CPU teams than the developers though was worth the time. If the latter is true, then I can understand and deal with it, but I'm just looking for some clarification here.

I follow this closely. Players who have the right to refuse don't always do so. Is it realistic? Don't know. I've had players with the right to refuse go to the minors after clearing waivers, so it's not an "AI" only thing. OOTP doesn't follow all current MLB roster rules. Did you try demoting after the player has cleared waivers? It may or may not work.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by atl_braves

This was something that I noticed in last year's game, and is still around in OOTP 17. If a human player tries to demote a veteran who has the right to refuse a demotion, the feature will work, and he will refuse. At that point you have to release or trade him if you want him off the roster.



For CPU teams, the feature doesn't work: after clearing waivers, veterans with the right to refuse a demotion invariably get sent to the minors anyway.



I'm not sure if this is a bug or oversight, or if it was more complicated to implement for CPU teams than the developers though was worth the time. If the latter is true, then I can understand and deal with it, but I'm just looking for some clarification here.

Been seeing this since I started playing OOTP. At this point I think it may be a intentional free pass for the AI.

I get players not always refusing but when you go into commissioner mode and try to demote the player and he doesn't, exit the mode and see that the AI was able to sent him down then something is up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

go into commissioner mode and try to demote the player and he doesn't, exit the mode and see that the AI was able to sent him down then something is up.

This is what I've been doing to test this phenomenon, and I've been getting the same result - getting the "player refuses to be demoted" message, and then seeing that the player ends up at AAA the next day after I exit commissioner mode.

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

I get players not always refusing

In real life, a player with the right to refuse may accept a demotion because he gains the right to elect free agency if he is not added to the 40-man roster by the end of the season. OOTP doesn't have this wrinkle, so there is no reason why a player in this case would ever accept a demotion. They should refuse without fail, IMO.

Originally Posted by RchW

I've had players with the right to refuse go to the minors after clearing waivers, so it's not an "AI" only thing.

Whether or not the feature works 100% of the time for human-controlled teams (I don't mean to claim that it does, although it has for me), my point is that it works 0% of the time for CPU-controlled teams. The feature failing to work every single time is an "AI only" thing.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by atl_braves

Whether or not the feature works 100% of the time for human-controlled teams (I don't mean to claim that it does, although it has for me), my point is that it works 0% of the time for CPU-controlled teams. The feature failing to work every single time is an "AI only" thing.

I don't understand what you mean.

I think we have a different definition of "works 100%". That seems to be the opposite of your OP. Are you saying that every player who has the right of refusal (showing the caret^), never agrees to an assignment when it's a Human operated team and that they always agree to a minor league assignment when it is an AI operated team?

Based on that I can assure you that in more than 500 seasons, maybe closer to 900 seasons I have confirmed via scouring transaction logs that AI teams have difficulty sending veterans to the minors. In fact I'd submit that they end up releasing players and eating contracts far more often than I do as a human player. As a complete guess I'd say that my refusal rate is 60/40 to 90/10 depending entirely on the value of the contact involved. On the AI side I see several releases each year and a similar number of high paid players in the minors. I would agree that it should probably be tightened up but do not agree that the AI derives a significant advantage from it.

Just my observations and experience from a lot of play time FWIW.

Edit: we should clarify your concept of 100% and 0%.

[r0nster]

I am in season 2050 and yet have had players refuse to be sent to minors. I usually either release them or trade them immediately.

Would check the settings page that deals with this.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by RchW

I don't understand what you mean.

I think we have a different definition of "works 100%". That seems to be the opposite of your OP. Are you saying that every player who has the right of refusal (showing the caret^), never agrees to an assignment when it's a Human operated team and that they always agree to a minor league assignment when it is an AI operated team?

Based on that I can assure you that in more than 500 seasons, maybe closer to 900 seasons I have confirmed via scouring transaction logs that AI teams have difficulty sending veterans to the minors. In fact I'd submit that they end up releasing players and eating contracts far more often than I do as a human player. As a complete guess I'd say that my refusal rate is 60/40 to 90/10 depending entirely on the value of the contact involved. On the AI side I see several releases each year and a similar number of high paid players in the minors. I would agree that it should probably be tightened up but do not agree that the AI derives a significant advantage from it.

Just my observations and experience from a lot of play time FWIW.

Edit: we should clarify your concept of 100% and 0%.

Interesting, I've never seen the AI release a player mid season (or anywhere during the year) in the transaction logs before.

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by RchW

I don't understand what you mean.

I think we have a different definition of "works 100%". That seems to be the opposite of your OP. Are you saying that every player who has the right of refusal (showing the caret^), never agrees to an assignment when it's a Human operated team and that they always agree to a minor league assignment when it is an AI operated team?

I only ever argued the bold part, and I specified this in my last post. I have observed the same thing as SirMichaelJordan - I have never seen the CPU-controlled teams release a player with a Major League contract, ever. 0% of the time has the AI released a Major League player with the right to refuse, in my experience.

Originally Posted by r0nster

I am in season 2050 and yet have had players refuse to be sent to minors. I usually either release them or trade them immediately.

Would check the settings page that deals with this.

I don't know where I have been unclear, but the issue is not how the game behaves with human players. That has been fine in my experience. In my experience, the CPU-controlled teams have never released a player with a ML contract with the right to refuse.

[Lukas Berger]

Even if this is true, and I'm not certain it is, this would just be one small area where the ai might have a tiny advantage over the human player.

Given all the human players natural advantages, this seems like it wouldn't do anything worse than slightly help to level the playing field.

Or am I wrong on that?

[atl_braves]

I don't care about the advantage (as you said, it's tiny anyway), just the realism. Guys with 10+ years of service time and multiple years remaining on their contracts shouldn't be getting outrighted to AAA.

There is a mechanism to prevent this from happening (players can force the team's hand by refusing a demotion), but in my experience, it has never worked for CPU-controlled teams. That I've gotten the "this player refuses to be demoted" message a nonzero amount of times shows that the feature can work, I've just never seen it work for CPU teams.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by RchW

I don't understand what you mean.

I think we have a different definition of "works 100%". That seems to be the opposite of your OP. Are you saying that every player who has the right of refusal (showing the caret^), never agrees to an assignment when it's a Human operated team and that they always agree to a minor league assignment when it is an AI operated team?

Based on that I can assure you that in more than 500 seasons, maybe closer to 900 seasons I have confirmed via scouring transaction logs that AI teams have difficulty sending veterans to the minors. In fact I'd submit that they end up releasing players and eating contracts far more often than I do as a human player. As a complete guess I'd say that my refusal rate is 60/40 to 90/10 depending entirely on the value of the contact involved. On the AI side I see several releases each year and a similar number of high paid players in the minors. I would agree that it should probably be tightened up but do not agree that the AI derives a significant advantage from it.

Just my observations and experience from a lot of play time FWIW.

Edit: we should clarify your concept of 100% and 0%.

Do you play with any roster limits on? I don't have any roster limits on in the minors so that could be why I haven't seen these releases.

Also if lowering the waiting period from 10 days to 3 days get things to work then it may just be a legacy bug.

[atl_braves]

OOTP gets so many minute details of realism correct, I don't see why this one should be ignored, especially when the fix seems simple - just make CPU teams follow the rule.

The Phillies couldn't have buried Ryan Howard at AAA for the last couple years to open up a roster spot. So they were forced to keep him. The Braves couldn't have buried B.J. Upton at AAA to open up a roster spot. So they were forced to trade him. James Loney, Nick Swisher, Michael Bourn, Chris Johnson, Mat Latos, Edwin Jackson, Jarrod Saltalamacchia couldn't be buried at AAA, so they were released.

In OOTP, all of these players would be buried at AAA.

When players have the right to refuse, they invariably exercise it. The only fathomable reason that a player wouldn't exercise it (accepting a minors assignment) is because of a roster wrinkle that doesn't exist in OOTP (they can become FAs at the end of the season).

[PSUColonel]

What he's saying is players within a human controlled organization may or may not accept a minor league assignment, and that AI controlled teams' players ALWAYS accept a minor league assignment. I have not looked to see if this is true or not yet, but if this is the case, I slso consider it an issue.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Even if this is true, and I'm not certain it is, this would just be one small area where the ai might have a tiny advantage over the human player.

Given all the human players natural advantages, this seems like it wouldn't do anything worse than slightly help to level the playing field.

Or am I wrong on that?

I think you are wrong here, yes. Consistency within the rules s is important IMO

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by RchW

I don't understand what you mean.

I think we have a different definition of "works 100%". That seems to be the opposite of your OP. Are you saying that every player who has the right of refusal (showing the caret^), never agrees to an assignment when it's a Human operated team and that they always agree to a minor league assignment when it is an AI operated team?

Based on that I can assure you that in more than 500 seasons, maybe closer to 900 seasons I have confirmed via scouring transaction logs that AI teams have difficulty sending veterans to the minors. In fact I'd submit that they end up releasing players and eating contracts far more often than I do as a human player. As a complete guess I'd say that my refusal rate is 60/40 to 90/10 depending entirely on the value of the contact involved. On the AI side I see several releases each year and a similar number of high paid players in the minors. I would agree that it should probably be tightened up but do not agree that the AI derives a significant advantage from it.

Just my observations and experience from a lot of play time FWIW.

Edit: we should clarify your concept of 100% and 0%.

Good post...so if this is the case, it sounds to me, as though what really needs tweaking, is the AI's decision making when it comes to releasing players with substantial contracts.

[PSUColonel]

I do see a lot of AI players with larger contracts on the waiver wire FWIW