Dumb question time, but I just can't figure this out

David Watts · 03-26-2016, 03:31 PM

Playing historical with historical minors. How in the heck does one go about having an amateur draft? My first try I ended up with real players mixed with tons of guys named Ballplayer__________. And I mean tons. I want to start in 1919 with players on their actual teams and from that point on let teams draft from the new players entering the league each offseason. Example, when Gehrig imports I want him to go to the OOTP team that drafts him, not automatically to the Yankees. I don't want 9025 with the first name Ballplayer.

Things seem to work fine if I turn off the amateur draft, but then I get guys going to their true historical teams. Help!

Kent814 · 03-26-2016, 03:48 PM

When you created the league, did you import all historical minor leaguers?

David Watts · 03-26-2016, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kent814

When you created the league, did you import all historical minor leaguers?

Yes. Does that mean you can't have a draft?

Kent814 · 03-26-2016, 03:54 PM

No i thought maybe because you didn't import them it might be making placeholders but i guess i was wrong. Hopefully Markus or Matt or any one else on this awesome forum can help you

mitchkenn · 03-26-2016, 04:00 PM

my first draft did the same thing (1902). when i downloaded the last patch, i restarted the game again from 1901, and for some reason all those "Ballplayer" Jones types didn't show up. Heck if i know why. Don't have an answer, just letting you know you're not alone in that discovery.

edit - well, my 1903 draft (13 rounds) has 713 players, and 135 of them are "Ballplayer" Jones types. Just ran a filter in my draft for first name "Ballplayer" and deleted them. No idea ...... just they just appear. can't be ghost players, as i have no minors in 1902-1903 with historical minors .....

David Watts · 03-26-2016, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

my first draft did the same thing (1902). when i downloaded the last patch, i restarted the game again from 1901, and for some reason all those "Ballplayer" Jones types didn't show up. Heck if i know why. Don't have an answer, just letting you know you're not alone in that discovery.

Ugh, I thought maybe that was it. This was a league I created before todays patch. But, I just turned on the amateur draft in a new league(created with new patch) and once again the game created enough players for a 74 round draft. Real guys, fictional guys with regular names and tons of guys with the first name Ballplayer.

Maybe you can't have a amateur draft with historical minors turned on.

Teflon · 03-26-2016, 04:32 PM

From poking around the Lahman historical database I believe there are a fringe players from the late 19th and early 20th centuries that are missing first names in what historical records there were from that time. If you're importing any of these players, I'm assuming OOTP uses "Ballplayer" as a filler for missing first names. Example: The 1901 Washington Senators had a leftfielder who played in 1 game who is only recorded as "Harrison" - no first name and no date of birth.

David Watts · 03-26-2016, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teflon

From poking around the Lahman historical database I believe there are a fringe players from the late 19th and early 20th centuries that are missing first names in what historical records there were from that time. If you're importing any of these players, I'm assuming OOTP uses "Ballplayer" as a filler for missing first names. Example: The 1901 Washington Senators had a leftfielder who played in 1 game who is only recorded as "Harrison" - no first name and no date of birth.

I should mention that none of these Ballplayer dudes have a real stats menu. Real players do.

Silent_Thunder · 03-26-2016, 05:16 PM

So I went and checked the 1920s draft again, specifically to investigate these Ballplayers, and noticed something odd. While they do not load real life stats, they DO have assosiated historical IDs, which lead me to believe they are infact real, but something is breaking during the import process. Thus I started digging.

And with one example, Ballplayer Zitt, I decided to investigate further using Baseball Refrence. And my conclusion is the lack of real world stats may be due to them simply not having done much of anything, for he is listed as having played, IRL 4 games for the Orlando Tigers before vanishing off the face of the earth.

I then decided to check to find a player with a full anme but no "RL stats" page, and found it in Earl Worth. Again, a defined Historical Minors ID, but no Real Life Stats tab. Looking him up again on Baseball Refrence, I found a player with the same name, era, and position, who actually played around 120 games, but has vastly incomplete specific stats, like no PAs, RBIs, SBs, Runs, and so on, and thus doesn't have a RL stats tab.

Thus my conclusion is all of these Ballplayers and other "fictional" players, are infact real players with poorly documented stats in real life, and many whose first name were lost to history. In addition the reason these players won't show up if drafts are off is likely because they were never part of the MLB structure, the listed leagues never being affiliated with MLB at the time or at all.

PS: I do wish there was a way to disable the Real Life stats tab to begin with, as I play Historical Minors with scouting on and thus it can be tempting to "peek".

mitchkenn · 03-26-2016, 05:36 PM

Interesting work there! I suspected they may have been real, but didn't look as deep as you did. Thanks. i understand why they show up now, but they are still fillers to me, so i think i'll continue to filter/delete them rather than fill my reserve roster with nothing but names..

But, thanks a lot for the detective work, Mr. Holmes. Exceptional info!!!!!

actionjackson · 03-26-2016, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

Interesting work there! I suspected they may have been real, but didn't look as deep as you did. Thanks. i understand why they show up now, but they are still fillers to me, so i think i'll continue to filter/delete them rather than fill my reserve roster with nothing but names..

But, thanks a lot for the detective work, Mr. Holmes. Exceptional info!!!!!

Basically, they are guys who were recorded in a scoresheet by their last name only, and their first names were lost to history. I believe OOTP used to use the letter "U" (possibly for "unnamed") but now it's using the word "Ballplayer" to replace the missing first name. Nothing to worry about. You can always rename them if you want to.

phenom · 03-26-2016, 05:48 PM

And remember - there are no dumb questions. There are only dumb people.

David Watts · 03-26-2016, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Basically, they are guys who were recorded in a scoresheet by their last name only, and their first names were lost to history. I believe OOTP used to use the letter "U" (possibly for "unnamed") but now it's using the word "Ballplayer" to replace the missing first name. Nothing to worry about. You can always rename them if you want to.

I select 1919 to start my season with historical minors. The game imports all the 1919 MLB players and Texas League players. All of the Texas league players have first and last names. Clicked on a bunch of guys and they all seem to have real stats. I play out the 1919 season and all of as sudden Ballpark Kaiser, Ballpark Winfree, Ballpark Rock etc are now part of my league. So many of these in fact that there are enough for 74 draft rounds. That's 1184 players. Even if you take out the real imports, that's probably 1000 players.

Plus, if I don't select amateur draft and just let players go to their original teams, none of these Ballpark guys show up.

actionjackson · 03-26-2016, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

I select 1919 to start my season with historical minors. The game imports all the 1919 MLB players and Texas League players. All of the Texas league players have first and last names. Clicked on a bunch of guys and they all seem to have real stats. I play out the 1919 season and all of as sudden Ballpark Kaiser, Ballpark Winfree, Ballpark Rock etc are now part of my league. So many of these in fact that there are enough for 74 draft rounds. That's 1184 players. Even if you take out the real imports, that's probably 1000 players.

Plus, if I don't select amateur draft and just let players go to their original teams, none of these Ballpark guys show up.

That doesn't sound good. Have you reported it? I was perusing the minor league database (such as I could - it's quite unwieldy) and there are rather a lot of Ballplayer X players, but it sounds like it could be a bug anyway.

Silent_Thunder · 03-26-2016, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjackson

That doesn't sound good. Have you reported it? I was perusing the minor league database (such as I could - it's quite unwieldy) and there are rather a lot of Ballplayer X players, but it sounds like it could be a bug anyway.

As stated earlier in the thread Ballplayerl X means that history never recorded the first names of the players, as many surviving records only mention their last names, presumably in box scores and the like.

David Watts · 03-27-2016, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjackson

That doesn't sound good. Have you reported it? I was perusing the minor league database (such as I could - it's quite unwieldy) and there are rather a lot of Ballplayer X players, but it sounds like it could be a bug anyway.

I really don't know if it's a bug. I thought the database only included players from the leagues involved. In otherwords, in 1919, that would be the Major League Baseball and the Texas League. Maybe the DB includes other players as well.

mitchkenn · 03-27-2016, 08:52 AM

it looks like (not certain) that the minors are represented from 1902 on, just they are not associated, so they are free agents. i did a small test, with a player named Lincoln Stickney and self created him in 1902. The next year he played in Southern Association, 1903 season, the game created him as a amateur draftee. (He actually bounced between 1903-1910 from D ball to A a few times.) So i think, the pre-1919 minor leagues are represented, just not affiliated, so they are in the draft or free agent pool, which would explain a lot of why there are tons of names appearing in the draft. I think that's the case, but not perfectly certain yet.

risp2out · 03-27-2016, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent_Thunder

So I went and checked the 1920s draft again, specifically to investigate these Ballplayers, and noticed something odd. While they do not load real life stats, they DO have assosiated historical IDs, which lead me to believe they are infact real, but something is breaking during the import process. Thus I started digging.

And with one example, Ballplayer Zitt, I decided to investigate further using Baseball Refrence. And my conclusion is the lack of real world stats may be due to them simply not having done much of anything, for he is listed as having played, IRL 4 games for the Orlando Tigers before vanishing off the face of the earth.

I then decided to check to find a player with a full anme but no "RL stats" page, and found it in Earl Worth. Again, a defined Historical Minors ID, but no Real Life Stats tab. Looking him up again on Baseball Refrence, I found a player with the same name, era, and position, who actually played around 120 games, but has vastly incomplete specific stats, like no PAs, RBIs, SBs, Runs, and so on, and thus doesn't have a RL stats tab.

Thus my conclusion is all of these Ballplayers and other "fictional" players, are infact real players with poorly documented stats in real life, and many whose first name were lost to history. In addition the reason these players won't show up if drafts are off is likely because they were never part of the MLB structure, the listed leagues never being affiliated with MLB at the time or at all.

PS: I do wish there was a way to disable the Real Life stats tab to begin with, as I play Historical Minors with scouting on and thus it can be tempting to "peek".

You are onto it here, I think, but it's not simply that they didn't do much, it's that they player minor league ball in leagues not represented during that year in the game. This is my suspicion, anyway, given my experiments with the historical minors. I did not realize that this occurs even before 1919, the first year in which real minors appear in the game. Interesting.

risp2out · 03-27-2016, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent_Thunder

PS: I do wish there was a way to disable the Real Life stats tab to begin with, as I play Historical Minors with scouting on and thus it can be tempting to "peek".

And, for what it's worth, I agree. Having real stats hidden would add to the challenge and to immersion, IMHO. I would probably say "hide" real stats, rather than "disable" (as I would still want them to influence potential/talent), but I think we're just using different words for the same thing, maybe.

risp2out · 03-27-2016, 11:18 AM

For those following this thread, this conversation is ongoing over in the bug reports forum under the stickied thread on real minors roster issues.

03-26-2016, 03:31 PM	#1
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,509 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Dumb question time, but I just can't figure this out Playing historical with historical minors. How in the heck does one go about having an amateur draft? My first try I ended up with real players mixed with tons of guys named Ballplayer__________. And I mean tons. I want to start in 1919 with players on their actual teams and from that point on let teams draft from the new players entering the league each offseason. Example, when Gehrig imports I want him to go to the OOTP team that drafts him, not automatically to the Yankees. I don't want 9025 with the first name Ballplayer. Things seem to work fine if I turn off the amateur draft, but then I get guys going to their true historical teams. Help!

03-26-2016, 04:00 PM	#5
mitchkenn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Oregon, not by design Posts: 2,872	my first draft did the same thing (1902). when i downloaded the last patch, i restarted the game again from 1901, and for some reason all those "Ballplayer" Jones types didn't show up. Heck if i know why. Don't have an answer, just letting you know you're not alone in that discovery. edit - well, my 1903 draft (13 rounds) has 713 players, and 135 of them are "Ballplayer" Jones types. Just ran a filter in my draft for first name "Ballplayer" and deleted them. No idea ...... just they just appear. can't be ghost players, as i have no minors in 1902-1903 with historical minors ..... __________________ "This is my opening farewell " - Jackson Browne “They make a desolation and call it peace.” ― Agha Shahid Ali "Maybe she just has to sing, for the sake of the song - And who do I think that I am to decide that she's wrong." - Townes Van Zandt "I saw a young man leaning on his wooden crutch - He called out to me, 'Don't ask for so much' And a young woman leaning in her darkened door She cried out to me, 'Why not ask for more?' " - Leonard Cohen "Hello darkness, my old Friend ...." - Paul Simon Before Mays, before DiMaggio, there was Oscar Charleston. "All the lies about Babe Ruth are true." - Waite Hoyt Avatar is the late great Townes Van Zandt. rip. Last edited by mitchkenn; 03-26-2016 at 04:17 PM.

03-26-2016, 05:16 PM	#9
Silent_Thunder Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 235	So I went and checked the 1920s draft again, specifically to investigate these Ballplayers, and noticed something odd. While they do not load real life stats, they DO have assosiated historical IDs, which lead me to believe they are infact real, but something is breaking during the import process. Thus I started digging. And with one example, Ballplayer Zitt, I decided to investigate further using Baseball Refrence. And my conclusion is the lack of real world stats may be due to them simply not having done much of anything, for he is listed as having played, IRL 4 games for the Orlando Tigers before vanishing off the face of the earth. I then decided to check to find a player with a full anme but no "RL stats" page, and found it in Earl Worth. Again, a defined Historical Minors ID, but no Real Life Stats tab. Looking him up again on Baseball Refrence, I found a player with the same name, era, and position, who actually played around 120 games, but has vastly incomplete specific stats, like no PAs, RBIs, SBs, Runs, and so on, and thus doesn't have a RL stats tab. Thus my conclusion is all of these Ballplayers and other "fictional" players, are infact real players with poorly documented stats in real life, and many whose first name were lost to history. In addition the reason these players won't show up if drafts are off is likely because they were never part of the MLB structure, the listed leagues never being affiliated with MLB at the time or at all. PS: I do wish there was a way to disable the Real Life stats tab to begin with, as I play Historical Minors with scouting on and thus it can be tempting to "peek". Last edited by Silent_Thunder; 03-26-2016 at 05:36 PM.

03-26-2016, 05:36 PM	#10
mitchkenn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Oregon, not by design Posts: 2,872	Interesting work there! I suspected they may have been real, but didn't look as deep as you did. Thanks. i understand why they show up now, but they are still fillers to me, so i think i'll continue to filter/delete them rather than fill my reserve roster with nothing but names.. But, thanks a lot for the detective work, Mr. Holmes. Exceptional info!!!!! __________________ "This is my opening farewell " - Jackson Browne “They make a desolation and call it peace.” ― Agha Shahid Ali "Maybe she just has to sing, for the sake of the song - And who do I think that I am to decide that she's wrong." - Townes Van Zandt "I saw a young man leaning on his wooden crutch - He called out to me, 'Don't ask for so much' And a young woman leaning in her darkened door She cried out to me, 'Why not ask for more?' " - Leonard Cohen "Hello darkness, my old Friend ...." - Paul Simon Before Mays, before DiMaggio, there was Oscar Charleston. "All the lies about Babe Ruth are true." - Waite Hoyt Avatar is the late great Townes Van Zandt. rip.

03-26-2016, 05:48 PM	#12
phenom Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Near the Great Wall. On the GOOD side. Posts: 3,749	And remember - there are no dumb questions. There are only dumb people. __________________ reported

03-26-2016, 03:48 PM	#2
Kent814 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: San Diego Posts: 650	When you created the league, did you import all historical minor leaguers?

03-26-2016, 03:54 PM	#4
Kent814 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: San Diego Posts: 650	No i thought maybe because you didn't import them it might be making placeholders but i guess i was wrong. Hopefully Markus or Matt or any one else on this awesome forum can help you

03-26-2016, 04:32 PM	#7
Teflon Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 154	From poking around the Lahman historical database I believe there are a fringe players from the late 19th and early 20th centuries that are missing first names in what historical records there were from that time. If you're importing any of these players, I'm assuming OOTP uses "Ballplayer" as a filler for missing first names. Example: The 1901 Washington Senators had a leftfielder who played in 1 game who is only recorded as "Harrison" - no first name and no date of birth.

03-27-2016, 08:52 AM	#17
mitchkenn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Oregon, not by design Posts: 2,872	it looks like (not certain) that the minors are represented from 1902 on, just they are not associated, so they are free agents. i did a small test, with a player named Lincoln Stickney and self created him in 1902. The next year he played in Southern Association, 1903 season, the game created him as a amateur draftee. (He actually bounced between 1903-1910 from D ball to A a few times.) So i think, the pre-1919 minor leagues are represented, just not affiliated, so they are in the draft or free agent pool, which would explain a lot of why there are tons of names appearing in the draft. I think that's the case, but not perfectly certain yet. __________________ "This is my opening farewell " - Jackson Browne “They make a desolation and call it peace.” ― Agha Shahid Ali "Maybe she just has to sing, for the sake of the song - And who do I think that I am to decide that she's wrong." - Townes Van Zandt "I saw a young man leaning on his wooden crutch - He called out to me, 'Don't ask for so much' And a young woman leaning in her darkened door She cried out to me, 'Why not ask for more?' " - Leonard Cohen "Hello darkness, my old Friend ...." - Paul Simon Before Mays, before DiMaggio, there was Oscar Charleston. "All the lies about Babe Ruth are true." - Waite Hoyt Avatar is the late great Townes Van Zandt. rip.

03-27-2016, 11:18 AM	#20
risp2out All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 648	For those following this thread, this conversation is ongoing over in the bug reports forum under the stickied thread on real minors roster issues.