+++ Possible OOTP 6 Features +++

[mrskippy]

Ya know Shaun Sullivan had the right idea when he allowed customers to pay to get the alpha/beta/RC versions of PureSim. Too bad OOTP puts PureSim to shame.

[crackpott]

well, although we're all waiting for Markus to elaborate on the importing, he said he'd try to make one, so you will likely be able to convert your leagues all those who are worrying.

The problem, as I see it anyway, lies in certain players who's performance will be drastically affected. Most players will have slight changes, and a few will have huge changes. Currently, there are pitchers who are all averages and a brilliant in K's who can end up with a 0 in avoiding runs. Under the new system with K's more important, these guys might actually become useful. Same with the reverse trend: good pitchers (avoiding hits guys) might turn crappy in V6.

Most of the problems I believe will simply come in players matching their old performance moreso than simply a sheer inability to import from V5.

[TheRockCT]

Long post forthcoming, so just a warning, lol:

Other than Crackpott, I have noticed a surge of people who seem intent on there being a flawless importer in OOTP6.

I do have to take a stand for Markus here and say that if he is indeed going to rework the entire gaming engine, rewrite the code, and develop it almost as if it were an entirely new game, I can hardly see the ability for your current leagues to remain unchanged in some sense.

• If you imported your OOTP4 league into OOTP5, then you probably noticed that your players had no minor league stats in the OOTP4 years, whereas OOTP5 years are easily spotted with the game's recording of these statistics.
  
• If you imported your OOTP4 league into OOTP5, then you also probably noticed that the "Team Strategies" altered the way your team played - if you had a speedy team and jacked your tendency to steal/hit&run all the way up, you would see statistical differences in the two leagues.

These examples are just a couple of things that were changed. The OOTP4 engine and OOTP5 engine were of course very similar and while OOTP5 upgraded the efficiency of player development, AI, new options & reports, strategies, stats, etc. - it wasn't a completely new engine. I fear for those people who want their ongoing online leagues to remain 100% consistent through the change, because I don't think that it's going to happen.

Players are likely going to develop very differently, new rating systems and likely new financial changes will pose new issues for a league trying to maintain stability.

Am I saying that it's impossible to overcome? Not at all. Markus has surprised us in the past, and an import from OOTP5 could be pretty clean with very little "clean-up" on the part of the commissioner, and perhaps the developments/game engine alterations will work to the advantage of the gamer - it may simply feel like your league is curving in a particular direction, evolving if you will.

You may see gaps where new reports are generated from years past, but knowing Markus, if your anal enough then you can probably go back and edit these reports to give your league the missing history. And if the importer isn't even a possibility, don't tell me that you would have to retire whatever league you are in. Because very likely when you click "Create New Career" of some sort in OOTP6, you'll grow attached to your new teams, new players, and new features before you could even find them all. Or just chalk your first league up to financial disarray, new ownership, cultural change, etc. and create a new league using the foundation you created with your old one. Give the league some of the old teams, open up some brand new ones, rework all your logos - use a likely OOTP6 Pierre's Player/Career Stat editor to add SOME of the players from your old league - edit OOTP6's text files to indicate the No-Hitters, 50-HR hitters, Past Champions, and Award Winners from your FORMER league, and then BUILD on it. That way, when the game starts working differently internally, you'll adapt to it yourself because you don't see ALL your players performance skewing drastically with the new engine, and it'll give you the opportunity to maintain the nostalgia of your old league.

I know there are tons of people out there who purchase every console EA Sports/Sega Sports title every year - new upgrades to Madden have millions of mouths watering by July every year, and EA Sports does not even have the first ability to import a memory card file into a new game. They're entirely and completely incompatible, and that's how it will probably be for a long time.

Personally, I feel that a game can only grow as far as the passion of the developer and its customers. While every customer's opinion about their worries of importing their OOTP5 league into OOTP6 counts and should be listened to, I want the game to grow. If it means the sacrifice of a league along the way, so be it. The game cannot, and should not, be restricted from attaining the highest possible quality it can, for as long as Markus Heinsohn pours his blood (hopefully not too much of that), sweat, and tears into this game.

New features are necessary! I, like many others, find enjoyment in the nostalgia of plugging in Baseball Stars for the NES every couple of years and giving it a ride for a few minutes, but OOTP it is not. This game has to be given the freedom to be enhanced, and periodically OVERHAULED when new breakthroughs are made in computing, coding, and producing. The past is a great place to build from, but for those who worry about changing their leagues everytime a new version comes out, there are probably five people who would be incredibly disappointed if OOTP became some "every other year" production.

Whereas it's a dilemma to be faced for online leagues to consider converting next Spring, depending on what can be converted & how accurately so, and the fact that it doesn't seem fair to force Commissioners to make that choice to adapt painfully or restart painfully, it is no dilemma to me. I've started a league, becomed attached to its players, watched like a father as it grew and expanded into a mass of baseball glory and history on my own personal computer.

So by some fancy law that has probably been established by psychologists across the world - whatever brings a person happiness once, can bring it once more.

[Sweed]

Originally posted by TheRockCT
Long post forthcoming, so just a warning, lol:

Other than Crackpott, I have noticed a surge of people who seem intent on there being a flawless importer in OOTP6.

I do have to take a stand for Markus here and say that if he is indeed going to rework the entire gaming engine, rewrite the code, and develop it almost as if it were an entirely new game, I can hardly see the ability for your current leagues to remain unchanged in some sense.

• If you imported your OOTP4 league into OOTP5, then you probably noticed that your players had no minor league stats in the OOTP4 years, whereas OOTP5 years are easily spotted with the game's recording of these statistics.
  
• If you imported your OOTP4 league into OOTP5, then you also probably noticed that the "Team Strategies" altered the way your team played - if you had a speedy team and jacked your tendency to steal/hit&run all the way up, you would see statistical differences in the two leagues.

These examples are just a couple of things that were changed. The OOTP4 engine and OOTP5 engine were of course very similar and while OOTP5 upgraded the efficiency of player development, AI, new options & reports, strategies, stats, etc. - it wasn't a completely new engine. I fear for those people who want their ongoing online leagues to remain 100% consistent through the change, because I don't think that it's going to happen.

Players are likely going to develop very differently, new rating systems and likely new financial changes will pose new issues for a league trying to maintain stability.

Am I saying that it's impossible to overcome? Not at all. Markus has surprised us in the past, and an import from OOTP5 could be pretty clean with very little "clean-up" on the part of the commissioner, and perhaps the developments/game engine alterations will work to the advantage of the gamer - it may simply feel like your league is curving in a particular direction, evolving if you will.

You may see gaps where new reports are generated from years past, but knowing Markus, if your anal enough then you can probably go back and edit these reports to give your league the missing history. And if the importer isn't even a possibility, don't tell me that you would have to retire whatever league you are in. Because very likely when you click "Create New Career" of some sort in OOTP6, you'll grow attached to your new teams, new players, and new features before you could even find them all. Or just chalk your first league up to financial disarray, new ownership, cultural change, etc. and create a new league using the foundation you created with your old one. Give the league some of the old teams, open up some brand new ones, rework all your logos - use a likely OOTP6 Pierre's Player/Career Stat editor to add SOME of the players from your old league - edit OOTP6's text files to indicate the No-Hitters, 50-HR hitters, Past Champions, and Award Winners from your FORMER league, and then BUILD on it. That way, when the game starts working differently internally, you'll adapt to it yourself because you don't see ALL your players performance skewing drastically with the new engine, and it'll give you the opportunity to maintain the nostalgia of your old league.

I know there are tons of people out there who purchase every console EA Sports/Sega Sports title every year - new upgrades to Madden have millions of mouths watering by July every year, and EA Sports does not even have the first ability to import a memory card file into a new game. They're entirely and completely incompatible, and that's how it will probably be for a long time.

Personally, I feel that a game can only grow as far as the passion of the developer and its customers. While every customer's opinion about their worries of importing their OOTP5 league into OOTP6 counts and should be listened to, I want the game to grow. If it means the sacrifice of a league along the way, so be it. The game cannot, and should not, be restricted from attaining the highest possible quality it can, for as long as Markus Heinsohn pours his blood (hopefully not too much of that), sweat, and tears into this game.

New features are necessary! I, like many others, find enjoyment in the nostalgia of plugging in Baseball Stars for the NES every couple of years and giving it a ride for a few minutes, but OOTP it is not. This game has to be given the freedom to be enhanced, and periodically OVERHAULED when new breakthroughs are made in computing, coding, and producing. The past is a great place to build from, but for those who worry about changing their leagues everytime a new version comes out, there are probably five people who would be incredibly disappointed if OOTP became some "every other year" production.

Whereas it's a dilemma to be faced for online leagues to consider converting next Spring, depending on what can be converted & how accurately so, and the fact that it doesn't seem fair to force Commissioners to make that choice to adapt painfully or restart painfully, it is no dilemma to me. I've started a league, becomed attached to its players, watched like a father as it grew and expanded into a mass of baseball glory and history on my own personal computer.

So by some fancy law that has probably been established by psychologists across the world - whatever brings a person happiness once, can bring it once more.

Well I for one don't expect a flawless import. As you said it wasn't flawless from v4 to v5 and I know it won't be from v5 to v6. I'm just asking for something reasonable. That while coding the new engine great thought is put into the import of v5. As I said in another post we're not talking about converting from HH to OOTP, we're talking about the same game with the same programer.

Markus has stated that there will be importing with some compatibility issues. All I ask is for the information as to what that exactly means as it becomes available.

As Markus makes this move I fully support him and hope it turns out great but if I have to sacrifice a thousand hours or more of playing then it will be something that will have to given a lot of thought.

[Shorty]

I think if Markus contacted Marc Vaughn, Marc would gladly share how they implemented the 2D match engine.

As for speed ratings 1-10, that is great.

In 1985, Rickey Henderson would have been an A stealer in OOTP. There were probably a few other A quality stealing ability players then, too. But Rickey was clearly the best, and that is why 1-10 will be great. It will distinct the good from the great, and the great from the best.

[TheRockCT]

Originally posted by Sweed
Well I for one don't expect a flawless import. As you said it wasn't flawless from v4 to v5 and I know it won't be from v5 to v6. I'm just asking for something reasonable. That while coding the new engine great thought is put into the import of v5. As I said in another post we're not talking about converting from HH to OOTP, we're talking about the same game with the same programer.

Markus has stated that there will be importing with some compatibility issues. All I ask is for the information as to what that exactly means as it becomes available.

As Markus makes this move I fully support him and hope it turns out great but if I have to sacrifice a thousand hours or more of playing then it will be something that will have to given a lot of thought.

I can understand this wholeheartedly - and I actually hope the importing process turns out to be a success too, my solo league would gladly continue on in OOTP6. I just personally hope no one would miss out on what is bound to be a tremendous game based on their current league not importing perfectly, or even remotely close to perfect.

I agree that all the hours spent on making things happen in one league would make a person hesitant, but seriously - all the roster creators that have toiled to create perfectly detailed rosters with near-perfect ratings & charts only to have someone simulate a few years and have all that work reduced to in-game chance of player development & random talent hits & new game-generated players.

But someone's going to do it all again next year probably.

It sucks to think about starting over, and maybe Markus will make it where most things are compatible and things will transit fairly smoothly with only a few remote & miniscule things the player/commissioner has to do. But I am willing to risk that to see new things implemented into the game, even it changes a great many things we are all accustomed to. More customization, more features, more variation, it's never enough!

I am assuming that Markus won't even know what kind of importing issues he'll have until he begins work on the new engine. And as I said in my previous post above, I'd rather him give me 100% on the game engine than 80% of it as long as the import process works perfectly. Otherwise it's almost just a patch to me.

But believe me, I hope it all works out for those of you who have worked on your leagues to make them what they are today.....I have been in your shoes, I'm just of the mind that a better game is a better game.

[Chas]

Markus,

Kudos as it sounds like we're well on our way to yet another great game...

Now on to my questions/suggestions :

1- Is there a plan to rework the financials stuff. Again I'll ask for the option of a set Salary Cap league where income, profitability, etc are not important.. Just a Flat Cap.

2- Are player requests going to be relevant to the salary Cap so players won't ask for 10 Mil+ against a 40 Mil cap ??

3- Have you trashed the idea of an import from Front Page Sports Baseball '98 ? There has been talk about this since OOTPv3 but am yet to see any movement on it....

Hopefully with all the great improvements you'll find time to get these in...

Also -- export to Database !! --- You're truly my hero. As an ASP, Access 2000 Programming I'll finally be able to create my own reports. This may (depending on size of tables) take care of the HUGE uploads of HTML too as we can write ASP code to run the reports and just upload the .mdb file....

THANKS,
Chas

[akw4572]

all these new features sound great. Good luck pulling them off and pleasing everyone.

[TLBOrioles]

I've said many times that I would love to see all ratings on the same scale. That sort of symmetry I think makes things a lot more enjoyable. The new player can identify easily which ratings (and players) are best. They're not confronted with a B here, a .956 here, a 7/Good here, a "Prone" here, etc.

As others have noted, it also allows 10+ speed ratings rather than 5. Are all players really 1 of 5 speeds? No. If home runs came in A - E, does that mean Jay Gibbons is the same home run hitter as Barry Bonds?

I'd really like to see the same thing applied to fielding, duration, etc. as well.

As for the compatibility issue...even if OOTP6 comes out and is completely incompatible, fine. Leagues go on using OOTP5 - just as some still use 4 or 3. I agree that time spent on compatibility is time well spent, but it doesn't make or break the product for me. Most of us buy every version of OOTP - the reason for that is the great new features that Markus includes.

[TLBOrioles]

And while I'm here, if I could add a few more things to OOTP6, they would be:

1) Revamped fielding system. Have a realistic arc of players developing their primary positions in the minors based on their skills, and moving to new positions as they get older. This is critical to realism. When A-Rod gets too old to play SS I want to move him to 1B--without having him make 50 errors a year, and without retraining him in the minors/ST. (I made a detailed post about the sort of new system I'd like to see in the Wish List forum for those that care). Have realistic utility players.

2) Enhanced manager mode, a la Madden for example. Create computer managers who can be hired/fired and switch teams as well. Maybe split each team's front office into three roles: Manager, General Manager, and Owner. Manager makes the in game moves, GM makes transactions, Owner determines budget. Perhaps the player can be any/all of the three?

3) Extension of the era ratings to include steals, etc.

4) In-game stat calculator. By this I mean, the game should know how to calculate XR, OPS+, Win Shares, and other such stats. Don't store them - that would be a waste of space. Rather, program the formulas, and derive the stats from them when the user wants them. Then, export the stats to a file upon request.

5) In-game expansion utility.

6) Draft pick trading. I know it's not in MLB, but make it optional for the many online leagues that use it.

7) Support Babe Ruth. Allow a player to both bat and pitch.

If there's a real recode going on, it's time for me to make my outlandish requests . If there's anything I can do to help make them a reality let me know.

[sporr]

It sounds great. I'm sure online leagues will find ways to continue no matter what they have to do.

[Malificent]

Originally posted by sporr
It sounds great. I'm sure online leagues will find ways to continue no matter what they have to do.

Like not upgrade.

I'm with the folks above. Not looking for a perfect import, just when it is created, clarity about what happens in the import process.

[TwinMonster]

This sounds outstanding Marcus. What's the latest on a revamped spring training? Would still like to see something more there. I like the 20-80 scouting system idea too. If nothing else, the 0-10 ratings system for running and fielding would be great.

[Sweed]

Originally posted by TLBOrioles


As for the compatibility issue...even if OOTP6 comes out and is completely incompatible, fine. Leagues go on using OOTP5 - just as some still use 4 or 3. I agree that time spent on compatibility is time well spent, but it doesn't make or break the product for me. Most of us buy every version of OOTP - the reason for that is the great new features that Markus includes.

Of course those that do not buy because of incompatibility become lost customers and lost revenue for ootpdevelopments, something I think a small company would want to avoid. This traslates into less dollars to keep a game alive that you buy every year.

I also buy every year for the new features and of course the ability to import my dynasty from the last version. Something that I was lead to believe would always be a cornerstone of ootp.

[janderson]

I agree wholeheartdly with TheRockCT's post. If the game doesn't convert well, and there are online leagues that don't want to start over...then there seems to be a simple solution: Don't start over. Keep using v5. What's wrong with that?

And if all those features are really implemented into v6, the fact that it won't convert will not keep people from buying the game. Maybe they'll keep using v5 in some of their leagues, but they'll buy the game for their own use. Anyone who's really into the game will buy a new, greatly expanded version, regardless of whether they can use their old leagues on it.

The bottom line is this: I would hate to see v6 not become a better game (i.e. Markus not implement a revamped ratings system) because people are whining that their old leagues won't convert.

[BillyBuck]

Markus - just a thought...

Please keep in mind when adjusting all pitchers to having ONE duration...just becuz a pitcher can go 7 innings as a starter does not mean he can go 7 innings in relief. Starters pace themselves...relievers generally put more juice behind their pitching, etc. There IS a difference in starter and reliever durations. Just thought I would mention that.

[rogmax11]

Just a thought about pitch-by-pitch: Scott is dead-on about having the ability to turn pbyp on/off as the mood dictates. And if you integrate pbyp into V6, how about having umpires ( or ump crews ) that are customizable? That way you could recreate great umps of the past, complete with the tendencies/quirks that added so much color to the game. If you are going to have HBP, and player ejections, and disputed calls, and arguing, etc., why not have umpires that are reflections of real life too? God knows that umpires with short fuses or suspect strike zones, or poor vision, have impacted game results since Abner Doubleday was a lad.

Mostly eye-candy, I know, but when you begin focusing on minutia like pbyp then you cannot ignore the impact of the umpire crews.

[eriqjaffe]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!

I finally find a game that makes me remove BBPro from my hard drive (well...just from the laptop) and he's going to go out and make a better one.

I'd like to call attention to a few things that were touched on in earlier posts in this thread, as well as throw a few of my own in there, just to collect 'em all in one place:

1) Support for "foreign leagues". Particularly, it'd be great if you could assign a specific group of names files to specific league, so you wouldn't have to switch your names files when you jump from your Japanese league to your Mexican league. I don't personally want to see a league full of Hiroyuki Guerreros.

2) Support for more than .BMP graphics. In particular, I'd love to see support for .GIF and .PNG, since it's very easy to set tranpsarency on those without having to monkey with RGB values. As I've learned from my logo sets, what's transparent on one machine may not be transparent on another.

3) In-game expansion and contraction. I would classify this as a "must-have" option. As it stands now, expansion is a tedious process, and contraction just dumps players into the FA pool. I (and many others, I would imagine) would love to see protected player lists, expansion drafts and contraction drafts as in-game options.

4) The ability to turn off the importing of rookies and/or assigning them to their real teams. And I don't just mean for one season, but for the duration. That way, somebody doing a historical league (fictional or real) starting in 1955 can sim a dozen season while they sleep. And I say "and/or", because semi-fictional leagues might want the real players, but want them to be send to the draft pool.

Heck, I'll probably think of more later.

--Eriq.

[crackpott]

Originally posted by BillyBuck
Markus - just a thought...

Please keep in mind when adjusting all pitchers to having ONE duration...just becuz a pitcher can go 7 innings as a starter does not mean he can go 7 innings in relief. Starters pace themselves...relievers generally put more juice behind their pitching, etc. There IS a difference in starter and reliever durations. Just thought I would mention that.

...from my suggestions post:

"Well first off, the obvious thing everyone has talked about, make duration one rating. I can see the idea behind two ratings, but they're completely different mentalities. Starting you have to save some stuff, relief you go all out. So if one rating is not an option in order to preserve this, at least give every pitcher a rating at both SP and RP endurance, and have him "take a hit" statistically so to speak, when played out of position. Simply a rating such as "conforming to different role" or something like that. Some pitchers, like Smoltz, could be "good" at this and have no problem out of the pen or starting. Others, like Escobar, would be "bad" and be good at starting, but terrible in the pen. This rating, combined with a one duration system would be very nice, I believe. It would allow someone to put a pitcher anywhere, but have to be concerned with duration AND keep in mind that some pitchers don't have the stuff to be starters, or the mentality to come into relief."

...so in summary, I support ya.

[Dargone]

That all sounds very good and I absolutely love CM4. It is a fantastic game. When I first got CM4 I was thinking how cool it would be to have a 2D engine like that in OOTP. I hope you strongly consider that for version seven