The Draft

[brimick78]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
I'm not using ANYTHING as an excuse, but merely stating facts of how things are IRL.

Also, I'm curious how many years/seasons of play you are basing this on?

I'll take these one at a time.

In IRL the draft is more of a crapshoot. Teams have completely different draft boards.

I'm about 10 years through my current dynasty. I've played over 100 seasons in V5. This is not to small a sample size.

[brimick78]

Originally posted by Henry
Easy fella

Five years and five versions sure as heck doesn't represent "lack of commitment"



And what exactly are we supposed to do when you come out with both barrels blazing ?

f you want to discuss areas the game can be improved, we're here to do that. If your only interested in "flaming us" then expect the same thing in return.

Now - can we start over ?

I'm okay for starting over it's just that everytime I try to talk about the games defficiencies everyone gets very defensive.

I could be wrong about this but I saw minimal improvement in the draft from V4 to V5 and it doesn't seem like it's an area where Markus is commited to making it better. Ofcourse I could be wrong.

[brimick78]

Originally posted by Falcon52
I think it's all a matter of luck. For instance, in my league, which is about 50 years running now, I have NEVER had one of my prospects drafted after round 3 (I do a 5 round draft) succeed as a quality player. All my "stars" were guys I drafted in the 1st or 2nd round, with the occassional 3rd rounder being a utility guy or a 5th starter or a 7th reliever.

If this game were at all realistic you would have tons of stars drafted after the first or second round. Infact most of them would have been.

[Henry]

OK.... decided to look at one of my leagues... 50 years into it... and found this looking at my retired player list.

51 players chosen in Round 1
20 players chosen in Round 2
14 players chosen in Round 3
6 players chosen in Round 4
12 players chosen in Round 5
5 players chosen in Round 6
3 players chosen in Round 7
4 players chosen in Round 8
2 players chosen in Round 9
4 players chosen in Round 10

This looks like a far cry from saying no one besides Round 1 and 2 pan out... I will agree almost all of the HOFs are from Round 1 but out of the top 121 players in the league, a bit more than half were from the fisrt two rounds.

[Henry]

To address your other points....

Originally posted by brimick78
Am I the only person who thinks the draft in this game is way out whack?

Highschool players are drafted high yes that's realistic. But way to many of them succeed.

You cannot find quality players late in the draft. None of them panout.

Answered above

Also for those of us who want to be the next Billy Beane you don't get compensation picks. He's had I think over 10 first rounds picks the last two years and will get a few more this year with Guillen and Tejeda being free agents.

This and trading draft picks has been discussed for future versions

I'd also like to see stats instead of ratings for rookies and have to make sense of them. I'm all for people who want too see ratings gettting that but it's not me.

I believe this is Markus' intention - to lean on stats a bit more

I think these aspects of the game really need to be improved. The last thing makes it impossible for a low budget team to succeed. I know that if you field quality teams you can easily spend about $65 million but it's more fun spending $40.

Another thing is I wish stats meant more in general in this game you can pretty much ignore stats and just look at ratings for non-major leaugers.

As Steve sais, the minor league stats are created the same way as the major league players - so they mean the same

I hope I don't get flamed for this. This board tends to go on the defensive anytime sometihng constructive is suggested. I just feel the draft is the most important and weakest feature in the game.

[Steve Kuffrey]

I guess I just don't get it then. We are trying to improve the game in every way possible as quickly as possible BUT it can't happen overnight in every area. You are unhappy with the draft, someonelse is unhappy with retirement, someonelse is unhappy with another area. If I've said it once I've said it 50 times.....improving a game takes time. If you can't wait or are unhappy then there are other games, will they be better? Maybe in some areas but others not. Do we "lack commitment" to making this game better? Nothing could be further from the truth BUT it WILL NOT make everyone happy 100% of the time.......THAT game will never be made.

I guess I'm really not sure what kind of answer you are looking for, if you will look back at my posts I said that sure this part of the game needs work. Is it going to get better? I'd say so but all change, improvement, adjustments, etc take time.

[brimick78]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
I guess I just don't get it then. We are trying to improve the game in every way possible as quickly as possible BUT it can't happen overnight in every area. You are unhappy with the draft, someonelse is unhappy with retirement, someonelse is unhappy with another area. If I've said it once I've said it 50 times.....improving a game takes time. If you can't wait or are unhappy then there are other games, will they be better? Maybe in some areas but others not. Do we "lack commitment" to making this game better? Nothing could be further from the truth BUT it WILL NOT make everyone happy 100% of the time.......THAT game will never be made.

I guess I'm really not sure what kind of answer you are looking for, if you will look back at my posts I said that sure this part of the game needs work. Is it going to get better? I'd say so but all change, improvement, adjustments, etc take time.

I know that everyone is complaining about something.

I never said I thought that you lacked commitment to making the game better I said you lacked commitment to making the draft better. Maybe I should have said "you don't value the draft has highly as I do."

Also whenever I say something doesn't happen in this game people come here and say "it does every once in a while." I know that sometimes you can get talent late in the draft. I would geuss very few teams have more than a handful (say three) first rounders or second rounders on their roster. Ten years through I'm betting every team has significantly more than that.

[Spielman]

Well, I do agree that the draft is an area of OOTP which could use quite a bit of improvement.

The draft does seem a bit too top heavy. Running a draft with even five rounds results in too much busywork dealing with prospects whose chances of success are extremely low. These are problems.

I would like to point out, however, that any one for one comparison of 1st round picks in reality vs. OOTP is going to be a waste of time. The real baseball draft has 50 rounds. The draft in a game like OOTP is always going to have fewer rounds, because the logistics of dealing with a farm system that large and that involved wouldn't be fun for more than a few zealots. So if you're running a 5 round draft, you might want to think of that first round as being roughly equivalent to the first TEN rounds of the real draft.

Somehow, I'm guessing that every major league team is going to have quite a bunch of players who were selected in the first 10 rounds.

-Spielman

[Skipaway]

I think there is a very obvious reason that the game will never be the same as real life draft-wise: the baseball draft got 50 rounds. With that many rounds, of course there would be less 1st round busts and late round sleepers. And I doubt there would be more than a few people playing this game with more than 10 rounds of draft.

The game could have designed in a way that rookie ratings are more vague, and players would have to play the giant crapshoot to take in 50 players, maybe some more from other sources ( foreign signings, non-draftees). Then there would be a process to weed out the useless ones and assigning players to various farm teams. I believe that we are at least 2 versions away from that?

As for the college player vs. high school player issue, the game would need to at least show some kind of scouting data difference to make that work. Considering the heavy reliance of ratings on talents in this game, there is no place for Billy Beane's drafting strategy in this game. Maybe only the OBP part ( BB ratings).

[Henry]

Originally posted by Spielman
I would like to point out, however, that any one for one comparison of 1st round picks in reality vs. OOTP is going to be a waste of time. The real baseball draft has 50 rounds. The draft in a game like OOTP is always going to have fewer rounds, because the logistics of dealing with a farm system that large and that involved wouldn't be fun for more than a few zealots. So if you're running a 5 round draft, you might want to think of that first round as being roughly equivalent to the first TEN rounds of the real draft.

Correct. If you take my results and spread them over 50 rounds, you'd see something like this...

51 players chosen in Rounds 1-5
20 players chosen in Rounds 6-10
14 players chosen in Rounds 11-15
6 players chosen in Rounds 16-20
12 players chosen in Rounds 21-25
5 players chosen in Rounds 26-30
3 players chosen in Rounds 31-35
4 players chosen in Rounds 36-40
2 players chosen in Rounds 41-45
4 players chosen in Rounds 46-50

Doesn't look so top-heavy when spread across 50 rounds - and confirms that a few "gems" existed in the last 5 rounds (46-50)

[cooper_gd]

Good points by Spielman, Skipaway and Henry. I'll also add that indeed college top picks do have a better chance of being good - at least at being good quicker - than HS picks. On a regular basis 22 or 23 year old top picks can either go to AAA or the show right away. Less time in the minors = less time for the talent monster to deal havoc (at least prior to experience in the big’s).

I do not want stats for the amateur draft - at least not as a primary tool. There is no way that you can ever get that sort of thing accurate. e.g. Where did they play HS baseball? Texas where there is strong HS baseball year around? Or somewhere like Maine where they can only play four months out of the year?

I think ratings gives you a good idea without being misleading or forcing micro-management. I want to see that potential BRILLIANT in "eye" talent to know that guy probably takes a lot of walks - not a 3-1 BB/K ratio for NE Smithers HS in Barneyville, ME. The latter might suggest decent patience, but I do not want to have to go to some other FOF:TCY type screen to determine if Maine has good baseball or if the HS coach teaches good fundamentals at NE Smithers.

That’s all fine for football or even basketball, but as said before in this thread, those two sports have impact now players in each draft - where baseball rarely does. The game engine, play outcome, roster management, AI, et al, all play a bigger part in the game, as they should. The draft could use some depth - more interactive as it was stated, but IMO, more interactive and more depth in spring training is much more important.

[Kelric]

Originally posted by Henry
Correct. If you take my results and spread them over 50 rounds, you'd see something like this...

51 players chosen in Rounds 1-5
20 players chosen in Rounds 6-10
14 players chosen in Rounds 11-15
6 players chosen in Rounds 16-20
12 players chosen in Rounds 21-25
5 players chosen in Rounds 26-30
3 players chosen in Rounds 31-35
4 players chosen in Rounds 36-40
2 players chosen in Rounds 41-45
4 players chosen in Rounds 46-50

Doesn't look so top-heavy when spread across 50 rounds - and confirms that a few "gems" existed in the last 5 rounds (46-50)

I was going to bring up this very same point. There are a lot more chances to find a diamond in the rough when you are drafting 50 Rounds for a total of 1500 players verse drafting a total of 150 or 300 with a 5 or 10 Round draft respectively. Don't forget also that the big leagues have the independent leagues giving them talent occassionally too, as well as the very rare undrafted player actually getting a chance. There are just so many more ways for a big league club to find talent than there are ways for us to do so in OOTP. And I think this is the right thing to do - there is only so much time to code the game, and keeping it simple with the Amateur Draft is the best way to go.

Can the Draft be upgraded a bit? Probably. Do I have any ideas how? Nope.

My best suggestion for diamonds in the rough type of search is that every two or three years a player or two are randomly created and stuck in the Free Agent pool out of nowhere, basically like independent players. I'm not sold entirely on that idea, and I'm perfectly fine with the Amateur Draft remaining the only way to get guys.

[Steve Kuffrey]

I would agree that certainly the draft can be improved but I wouldn't look for the same scale as MLB as far as number of players, rounds, etc..

[Kelric]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
I wouldn't look for the same scale as MLB as far as number of players, rounds, etc..

Agreed, that would be overwhelming and on a scale we just don't need.

[brimick78]

Originally posted by Kelric
Agreed, that would be overwhelming and on a scale we just don't need.

Some of us do I don't see why Markus can't let us do a 50 round draft if we wanted. Unless the database couldn't handle that.

I would just like to see some different drafting stragedies as well. Oakland only drafting college guys, seattle I think likes high schoolers, ect. Not exactly like that but something different. Baseball is the only sport where one teams 20th rounder is anothers 1st rounder. I'd like to see this.

[Steve Kuffrey]

One thing that it seems folks forget is that games have limitations. I've never tried going anywhere close to that many rounds but it maybe possible. Of course you could only do it for a year or so due to roster size limits. Go for it.

Also, as has been mentioned MANY times I'm sure "owner/GM" personality differences are gonna be added down the road.....but not overnight.

[ATypicalGiantsFan]

"Baseball is the only sport where one teams 20th rounder is anothers 1st rounder"

Just because it happened with Billy Beane once (with Jeremy Brown) doesn't mean it happens often. Granted its happened more than that in real life, I doubt it happens often.

I'm guessing that the draft hasn't been focused on is because not that many people care, or voice their opinion about it. Markus works towards the customers. People have commented mainly in weaknesses with online leagues, trade AI and financials. If you were a programmer, and a few people complained about the draft while many people comment on trade AI, which aspect would you try to fix? This is not to say that the draft will ever be "fixed" but there are priorities.

[Spielman]

Originally posted by brimick78
Baseball is the only sport where one teams 20th rounder is anothers 1st rounder. I'd like to see this.

Nobody else's draft has 20 rounds.

Look, if you want 50 rounds in an OOTP draft, then I think you're going to be fighting that battle alone. The depth and complexity of the minor leagues needed to handle that large a draft would be daunting from a programming perspective, and would take gameplay from being a fun diversion into being a full-time job. FOF-TCY did it with micromanagement of the daily schedules of your football players. OOTP would do the same damn thing with a 50 round draft and complete minor league system.

-Spielman

[Heem Dream]

I see it also, in my dealings with FPS as a file contributor, with its very scaled down farm system I had to manipulate the player generation file so that there were relatively few busts. The majority of players generated needed to be at least average so the game would not go downhill. But those contributions alone could not save the game that is why most of the FPS people are here now

You need to have a guaranteed healthy infusion of talent, but since each team only has one set of farm teams and not several like in real life, and compromise had to be made. The generation has to be top heavy

I would like a different type of scouting system, but there is enough risk and variation anyhow, I have seen late round picks make great improvements, and surefire talents blow out their arms.

I would like to see more interactive scouting like , "I think we over estimated John Jones' ability, and so forth"
and
"We have a steal in Mike Jones, he is tearing up AA, and so forth"

and also more scouting based on actual performance (might be hard to code though) "We had So and So rated very high, but he has yet to show us anything, his time is running out"

This would suit me fine especially for big leaguers instead of a strictly ratings based scouting report here is an example

Benitez will tie his manager's hands at times. The righthander falters when used on back-to-back days or when he sits for extended periods. His stuff is at its best when he takes the mound every other day, resulting in a 97-MPH fastball. Strictly a fireballer a couple of years ago, Benitez has expanded his repertoire lately to include a split-finger fastball in the low 90s and a hard slider in the 86-88 MPH range. His offerings tend to flatten out and land in the heart of the strike zone when he's tired or too well rested. But when he's at the top of his game, he dominates lefthanded batters and has good command of all his pitches.

Not exactly draft related but just thought I'd add it

[brimick78]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
One thing that it seems folks forget is that games have limitations. I've never tried going anywhere close to that many rounds but it maybe possible. Of course you could only do it for a year or so due to roster size limits. Go for it.

Also, as has been mentioned MANY times I'm sure "owner/GM" personality differences are gonna be added down the road.....but not overnight.

Would those even have an impact on the draft behind positional prefences?

I'm pretty sure that a players age already affects development (I've noticed 22 year olds mature faster than 18 or 19 year olds).
But in baseball it also does. By which I mean to say a players age should have an impact on what teams take him.

I know this would significantly slow the game down but to go to a 50 round draft we need like 5 or 6 different farm teams. I'd like to know if you feel that would be possible.