Managing Games

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by battists

The truth is, once we see something that bothers us, we are predisposed to notice it, and conveniently not remember when it happens in a non-bothersome way.

But Markus and crew have always been open to tweaking things, given some compelling evidence. Unfortunately, at the end of the day you are only providing anecdotal experience, and there is little chance that anything will change without some significant evidence that there is actually an issue.

To make a compelling case, you'd need to determine what things you think are problematic (you've mentioned several different things in this thread) and keep careful track of occurrences, both positive and negative, and then probably provide your league files as well.

Not that it should be your onus to fix Markus' product, mind you. But the bottom line is, there is a list as long as both of our arms combined of new features and fixes on Markus' to-do list. They simply don't have the resources to spend researching every "might be an issue," especially when it's not something that is widely being reported as an issue. So the focus during new version development is on features, and then fixes are generally focused on critical issues (crashes, other easily reproducible issues) first. Subjective issues are the least likely to be prioritized. So, if it's important to you, the most likely way to potentially have something done about it would be to provide some data.

Good luck!

Although, if Markus is nefariously making anyone who tries to manage the Mets have nothing but a frustrating experience, what are the odds that he will acknowledge it and fix it?......

[battists]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Although, if Markus is nefariously making anyone who tries to manage the Mets have nothing but a frustrating experience, what are the odds that he will acknowledge it and fix it?......

Well, but really, if that is the case, SHOULD he fix it?

(Phillies fan here...)

[dime]

My two cents, as a player since ootp5: I think the in-game logic/sim algorithms are not the same as the quick-sim stuff...my perception has been that there are consistently many more errors, passed balls, hit batters, starters knocked out in 1st inning, etc. when I play the games out vs. when I sim.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by dime

My two cents, as a player since ootp5: I think the in-game logic/sim algorithms are not the same as the quick-sim stuff...my perception has been that there are consistently many more errors, passed balls, hit batters, starters knocked out in 1st inning, etc. when I play the games out vs. when I sim.

That is not true. I play all my games out. I am playing in the 1880's when errors and passed balls are happening at a prodigious rate, yet my team consistently has the fewest of both year in and year out because I focus on having a good defense.

I will run a test here in a little bit to see exactly the difference.

[Questdog]

Okay, here is definitive proof that playing games out does not make your team have more errors and passed balls.

I played the 1885 season, playing each game out in 1-pitch mode. I kept the Opening Day save from that year, so I went back and loaded it up and simmed out the season a week at a time.

Here are the fielding stats of the 2 seasons (The top season is the sim and the bottom is the one I played out):

And really, what would be the point of making playing games out a frustrating experience by making your team suck more than if you sim?

P.S. I won the League when I played the games out and finished a distant 2nd in the sim (mostly because my #1 pitcher got hurt).

[dime]

I appreciate the sentiment, but I just don't believe the in game simulation to be as accurate as the quick sim results. Seem to be more "rare" outcomes as I mentioned - not a conclusion I've drawn from about whether my team wins or not.

[ConStar]

I will attest to at least one part of this: Slow-footed runners regularly getting infield singles.

I don't know whether it's a failure of the play-by-play engine to accurately describe what actually happened, or whether it's an actual failure of the game engine/programming. What I do know is that an extraordinary percentage of balls that "stop dead in front of the plate," tappers that go right back to pitchers with fielding ratings of 17, etc., end up with a guy with a speed rating of 3 or so ending up safe at first.

I could understand if this was contained to the Billy Hamiltons of the world, but it's up and down the lineup. Not even the worst high school team I played on had this much trouble fielding balls hit right between home plate and the mound. On the real-life ML level, if you hit a two-bounce tapper back to the mound, unless Mitch Williams is the pitcher, it's a throw-out at first base almost every time unless the pitcher air-mails the throw.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by dime

I appreciate the sentiment, but I just don't believe the in game simulation to be as accurate as the quick sim results. Seem to be more "rare" outcomes as I mentioned - not a conclusion I've drawn from about whether my team wins or not.

What "rare" outcomes?........you mentioned errors and passed balls.....I just showed you that the same team had nearly the same number of each in a season where I played out every game and a season where I simmed it week to week. You also mentioned hit batters, but in the NL of 1885 there was no such thing, so I cannot give you data on that.

some people have extra thick skulls, I guess......the engine is identical whichever way you play.......

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by ConStar

I will attest to at least one part of this: Slow-footed runners regularly getting infield singles.

I don't know whether it's a failure of the play-by-play engine to accurately describe what actually happened, or whether it's an actual failure of the game engine/programming. What I do know is that an extraordinary percentage of balls that "stop dead in front of the plate," tappers that go right back to pitchers with fielding ratings of 17, etc., end up with a guy with a speed rating of 3 or so ending up safe at first.

I could understand if this was contained to the Billy Hamiltons of the world, but it's up and down the lineup. Not even the worst high school team I played on had this much trouble fielding balls hit right between home plate and the mound. On the real-life ML level, if you hit a two-bounce tapper back to the mound, unless Mitch Williams is the pitcher, it's a throw-out at first base almost every time unless the pitcher air-mails the throw.

This is a failure of the PbP to be able to describe what happens on every play, not of the results (infield single). Faster players do indeed get more infield singles in OOTP, but slower players get infield singles in real life. (A.J. Pierzynski has 5 this year).

Descriptions in OOTP of plays are limited in variety and sometimes don't convey a good picture of what has actually happened.

P.S. In researching this, I found out Paul Konerko, one of the slowest runners ever, once hit an inside-the-park home run.

[dime]

Originally Posted by Questdog

What "rare" outcomes?........you mentioned errors and passed balls.....I just showed you that the same team had nearly the same number of each in a season where I played out every game and a season where I simmed it week to week. You also mentioned hit batters, but in the NL of 1885 there was no such thing, so I cannot give you data on that.

some people have extra thick skulls, I guess......the engine is identical whichever way you play.......

I was unaware you helped code the game engine. Sorry my skull is so thick.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Originally Posted by dime

I was unaware you helped code the game engine. Sorry my skull is so thick.

The point is OOTP is a very mature code base that has been play-tested for years. Stuff "feeling off" isn't going to convince anyone to take a closer look. You need to present data from a long period of play time to demonstrate your claim. Otherwise, it's Occam's razor, where the simplest explanation is confirmation bias, because it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for OOTP to code two different simulation engines.

[tcblcommish]

Originally Posted by dime

I was unaware you helped code the game engine. Sorry my skull is so thick.

He didn't help code the game, just provide actual evidence instead of perceived things happening because you manage. People get it in their head that what you see in small ways are the norm for the game and even evidence can't prove them wrong. You should do the exact same thing questdog did and provide the data for proof that what you are seeing is actually so far out there in favor of the Sim vs play.

If you decide to do that, make the save files for each season available and then let Markus look at it. Arguing about a perception of something isn't reality

[sreem]

I feel your pain, but I would like to drop in my 2 cents. I preface this by saying I have not read the entire thread and what I am about to say may have already been said. Here goes :


It is all about sample size and confirmation bias. I too regularly was frustrated with this game when I would see my stud closer get blown up a couple of times. I would also get crazy when I saw a bunch of walks, or the opposing team string together extra base hits in a row. I would storm around my kitchen when my "pitch around" end up 5 rows deep in the bleachers. Believe me, I feel your pain.
I was encouraged to keep track of things and just play through them, and what I found really opened my eyes. First, these bad things happened, but not nearly as much as I perceived them to happen. Through my keeping track I started to see what was going right for me as well. Second, my frustrations often lead me to blow up my league and start over, even if I was only a month or so in. Threw the course of entire season things have a tendency to revert back to the mean.
So, though I know it feels like all things are working against you and your team, I truly believe that smart front office decisions, avoiding over-managing on the field, and shrugging the shoulders from time to time when the unexpected happens AGAINST you and your team will lead to a far deeper appreciation and enjoyment of this game. That coupled with observance over an ENTIRE season will help you see that for every bad hop against you there is probably an infield single by your 300 lbs catcher for you.


Hope this helps bring the blood pressure down.

[rpriske]

I will also say that these things frustrate me.

They also frustrate me when they happen when I am watching my favourite team in real life.

Being frustrated is part of the game.

[dime]

Unless someone has actually reviewed the code and can ascertain that the gameplay elements (variables) available in a "played game" have no input to/effect on the regular quick-sim model, we'll never really know. I'm fine with having a fog of war on how OOTP really "works" and don't see it as a criticism or flaw. Given a choice, I'd prefer better quick-sim results.

I will say I was surprised at the rude, ignorant responses from some of the regulars here. If you don't know anything about analytics or programming, you should probably refrain from trying to lecture about those topics.

In the absence of any true knowledge about this issue, we're all free to make our own conclusions. Cheers.

[bull425]

I have decided that ctl-alt-delete is my friend, lol. It's true when you notice things, you seem to notice them more and more.

I did a three game sample, 51 combo's of my team from 0-2 to 3-2. Of that I had 7 hits or BB in that span. I notice that the PC doesn't K as much, usually FO, GO, PO or what have you, but also a fair share of hits and BB.

I recently had a game. First and second, none out. Heart of my order. Next three batters, K, K, K.

I do think hit batters, infield singles, guys with low steal, low speed stealing pretty frequently.

Unless I logged all these things, I can only share anectodatally what happens.

I also have had many games where I take a lead. My last two are case in point. I go up 3-0, bottom of the second. The third and 4th, they score 4. I have seen that happen quite often. Almost invariably after scoring the CPU seems to score.

2 rated fielders making great players, my 13 or higher not making plays. Just things like that you notice. It happens, but obv they are rated low because defense is not their forte, but it doesn't seem to matter.

These are just things I have noticed playing the game. So in that light, ctl-alt-delete and restart are in order for me.

It seems that others have the same experiences.

I do like this game. But it feels like in game could use some tweaking.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by bull425

I have decided that ctl-alt-delete is my friend, lol. It's true when you notice things, you seem to notice them more and more.

I did a three game sample, 51 combo's of my team from 0-2 to 3-2. Of that I had 7 hits or BB in that span. I notice that the PC doesn't K as much, usually FO, GO, PO or what have you, but also a fair share of hits and BB.

I recently had a game. First and second, none out. Heart of my order. Next three batters, K, K, K.

I do think hit batters, infield singles, guys with low steal, low speed stealing pretty frequently.

Unless I logged all these things, I can only share anectodatally what happens.

I also have had many games where I take a lead. My last two are case in point. I go up 3-0, bottom of the second. The third and 4th, they score 4. I have seen that happen quite often. Almost invariably after scoring the CPU seems to score.

2 rated fielders making great players, my 13 or higher not making plays. Just things like that you notice. It happens, but obv they are rated low because defense is not their forte, but it doesn't seem to matter.

These are just things I have noticed playing the game. So in that light, ctl-alt-delete and restart are in order for me.

It seems that others have the same experiences.

I do like this game. But it feels like in game could use some tweaking.

Just curious, if the CPU scores 3 in the third inning to go up 3-0 and your human team then scores 4 to take the lead do you control-alt-delete? If not why not?

cpu had runners on first and second with nobody out and the heart of the order coming up.. followed by k-k-k. Do you control-alt-delete? If not why not?

When the cpu all-star closer, that hasn't blown a save all year, comes in against you with a 3 run lead and then proceeds to lose do you...

1. control-alt-delete?
2. celebrate your team's great win?

When your good bat, no glove, LF leaps up against the wall to make a great catch with the bases loaded in the bottom of the 9th and 2 outs, to seal the win do you...

1. control-alt delete?
2. celebrate?

How many times have you control-alt-deleted when one of your players made a play that would seem impossible for them to make?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by dime

Unless someone has actually reviewed the code and can ascertain that the gameplay elements (variables) available in a "played game" have no input to/effect on the regular quick-sim model, we'll never really know. I'm fine with having a fog of war on how OOTP really "works" and don't see it as a criticism or flaw. Given a choice, I'd prefer better quick-sim results.

I will say I was surprised at the rude, ignorant responses from some of the regulars here. If you don't know anything about analytics or programming, you should probably refrain from trying to lecture about those topics.

In the absence of any true knowledge about this issue, we're all free to make our own conclusions. Cheers.

Markus has stated there is only one engine, pretty sure he's reviewed the code. So your conclusion is Markus is a liar?

Sorry, there is no other way to put it. Either he lies and there are differences or he's telling the truth and they are the same. After playing 13 versions of the game I'll trust Markus. I see the data from my game. I see the data people like Questdog, and many others over the years, take the time to post and have yet to see anything that makes me rethink my trust in Markus and OOTP Dev.

There are all kinds of the posts on these boards trying to help people understand sample size, and why data is needed, and that "feelings" aren't going to prove anything. What makes that so hard to understand?
If it's really a problem for "player X" why wouldn't "player x" keep track and produce data to prove their point?

I known here comes the canned reply "I shouldn't have to, OOTP should already be tested and coded to give realistic results". Well guess what? OOTP had been coded and tested over thousands of seasons and those tests show realistic results if one looks at the data instead of going by how they think it "feels". It really is as simple as that.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Okay, here is definitive proof that playing games out does not make your team have more errors and passed balls.

I played the 1885 season, playing each game out in 1-pitch mode. I kept the Opening Day save from that year, so I went back and loaded it up and simmed out the season a week at a time.

Here are the fielding stats of the 2 seasons (The top season is the sim and the bottom is the one I played out):

Attachment 411285

And really, what would be the point of making playing games out a frustrating experience by making your team suck more than if you sim?

P.S. I won the League when I played the games out and finished a distant 2nd in the sim (mostly because my #1 pitcher got hurt).

Originally Posted by Questdog

What "rare" outcomes?........you mentioned errors and passed balls.....I just showed you that the same team had nearly the same number of each in a season where I played out every game and a season where I simmed it week to week. You also mentioned hit batters, but in the NL of 1885 there was no such thing, so I cannot give you data on that.

some people have extra thick skulls, I guess......the engine is identical whichever way you play.......

Originally Posted by Questdog

This is a failure of the PbP to be able to describe what happens on every play, not of the results (infield single). Faster players do indeed get more infield singles in OOTP, but slower players get infield singles in real life. (A.J. Pierzynski has 5 this year).

Descriptions in OOTP of plays are limited in variety and sometimes don't convey a good picture of what has actually happened.

P.S. In researching this, I found out Paul Konerko, one of the slowest runners ever, once hit an inside-the-park home run.

You know it's not really a fair argument it you're going to use real data

[Toast]

Originally Posted by bull425

I have decided that ctl-alt-delete is my friend, lol. It's true when you notice things, you seem to notice them more and more.

I did a three game sample, 51 combo's of my team from 0-2 to 3-2. Of that I had 7 hits or BB in that span. I notice that the PC doesn't K as much, usually FO, GO, PO or what have you, but also a fair share of hits and BB.

I recently had a game. First and second, none out. Heart of my order. Next three batters, K, K, K.

I do think hit batters, infield singles, guys with low steal, low speed stealing pretty frequently.

Unless I logged all these things, I can only share anectodatally what happens.

I also have had many games where I take a lead. My last two are case in point. I go up 3-0, bottom of the second. The third and 4th, they score 4. I have seen that happen quite often. Almost invariably after scoring the CPU seems to score.

2 rated fielders making great players, my 13 or higher not making plays. Just things like that you notice. It happens, but obv they are rated low because defense is not their forte, but it doesn't seem to matter.

These are just things I have noticed playing the game. So in that light, ctl-alt-delete and restart are in order for me.


I do like this game. But it feels like in game could use some tweaking.

I've seen the computer come back numerous times (over various editions of OTTP) 7, 8, 9 runs to win in the 9th ... once 15 runs! Doesn't matter what reliever or even starter one puts in during these cases to stop it ... when the computer wants to stop it, it stops. Many others have mention this over the years which has just resulted in a fire-storm of negative comments ... often turning to personal attacks.

I feel OTTP's strength is not in its' specific game play per se ... it is more a management sim at the GM level.Final results seem to be more a reflection of an aggregate team measure than a specific player's ability.
Hence no relieve as mention above has an effect.

Toast