OOTP 16 Update #7, Version 16.7.36 Released!

[Spindel]

I commish a league myself, and updated on Friday. A mistake made, but since several member use the steam version of 16, I've held off on any sims until the patch is available for them to update and export.

[GTAltman]

Originally Posted by Spindel

I commish a league myself, and updated on Friday. A mistake made, but since several member use the steam version of 16, I've held off on any sims until the patch is available for them to update and export.

In my league, we thought it'd be just ONE SIM, no big deal. I sent out my export and then just had to check on injuries. But then when it was supposed to be out, and then wasn't and then another on top of that and the mindset of, "We'll put it out to regular users first and see what happens and make the third party purchasers wait" is a bullspit way of handling a customer base, in my opinion.

The thought on how a delayed patch would effect leagues apparently never went through anyone's thought process is interesting to say the least.

Basically, get the patch out there, make everyone whole, and work on whatever build you want to work on. But don't give it out to a portion of your customer base and leave the others hanging in the wind.

I'm stuck now with 16 and now will spend the days from now till we upgrade to 17 to weigh whether my love of the league outweighs the how customers are treated.

[Rain King]

That isn't what happened though. Markus specifically said that it just takes longer to do the build for the 3rd party and that once they realized there was a problem with it they decided not to push it through since they were going to have a new one (that fixed what that patch broke) in a few days.

Steam users who created an early historical league in the last few days are probably quite appreciative.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by GTAltman

But don't give it out to a portion of your customer base and leave the others hanging in the wind.

Why should customers that buy directly from OOTP be penalized with a delayed patch? The problem goes away if your commissioner does not update until his Steam members can update.

[Matt Arnold]

It's usually only about a day between our updates and Steam updates. This weekend was a rare case where we found a bug very early after release, and then decided to hold back the Steam update until we could get things patched. We apologize for any problems, but we try to get the patches out as soon as possible to as many people as possible, so someone will always get it last, unfortunately.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by GTAltman

In my league, we thought it'd be just ONE SIM, no big deal. I sent out my export and then just had to check on injuries. But then when it was supposed to be out, and then wasn't and then another on top of that and the mindset of, "We'll put it out to regular users first and see what happens and make the third party purchasers wait" is a bullspit way of handling a customer base, in my opinion.

The thought on how a delayed patch would effect leagues apparently never went through anyone's thought process is interesting to say the least.

Basically, get the patch out there, make everyone whole, and work on whatever build you want to work on. But don't give it out to a portion of your customer base and leave the others hanging in the wind.

I'm stuck now with 16 and now will spend the days from now till we upgrade to 17 to weigh whether my love of the league outweighs the how customers are treated.

That's unfair. Unless a patch is fixing an unplayable condition, in which case your league would be halted anyway, it seems obvious that online leagues should be slow to apply later patches especially if the league is working fine. Patches always have a risk attached to them. I've always considered the later patches as "use at your own risk" until some feedback is collected. I use my second license as the sacrificial lamb for all patches..

Some common-sense and patience seems in order here.

[GTAltman]

Originally Posted by Rain King

That isn't what happened though. Markus specifically said that it just takes longer to do the build for the 3rd party and that once they realized there was a problem with it they decided not to push it through since they were going to have a new one (that fixed what that patch broke) in a few days.

Steam users who created an early historical league in the last few days are probably quite appreciative.

Rain King:
He didn't "Specifically" say that it takes longer to do a 3rd party build. Go review what he said.

Here is what he did say:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Doing builds takes time... simple as that. And once a build is found to have issues, we do not release it elsewhere. Hence the delay for the Steam version... simply tell your commish not to immediately update, so there is no problem moving forward. It has always been that way

As for historical users, whether solitaire or in leagues, they shouldn't be omited or catered to first. You do one patch, have it ready to go for all. And if you can't then hold off OR, keep everyone going, release the patch and then the second patch.

By my score card, direct buyers have gotten patched twice
STEAM users nothing.

Originally Posted by Orcin

Why should customers that buy directly from OOTP be penalized with a delayed patch? The problem goes away if your commissioner does not update until his Steam members can update.

Orcin, for the record, I would have gotten it directly from the company. I didn't realize I'd have to download and install STEAM. #NOTAFAN.
But it was too late after I realized it.

But, why should customers that buy directly from the game get a patch sooner than ones who purchased thru STEAM? Your logic makes no sense. And if you do believe that there is a "perk" to buying directly then you're okay with segregating a portion of your revenue stream. I'm glad you're not running my company. About 25% of my one league used STEAM, so it is a viable source of revenue to the company.

[GTAltman]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

It's usually only about a day between our updates and Steam updates. This weekend was a rare case where we found a bug very early after release, and then decided to hold back the Steam update until we could get things patched. We apologize for any problems, but we try to get the patches out as soon as possible to as many people as possible, so someone will always get it last, unfortunately.

One day and Last would have been okay.
5 days, and two patches later and others didn't get it is UNACCEPTABLE under every circumstance.

And then previously in this thread a Mac user said he waited a month.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Originally Posted by GTAltman

But, why should customers that buy directly from the game get a patch sooner than ones who purchased thru STEAM? Your logic makes no sense.

Because a company (OOTP) holding itself hostage to the whims of a third-party distributor (Steam) is an inane and self-sabotaging way of doing business.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

Because a company (OOTP) holding itself hostage to the whims of a third-party distributor (Steam) is an inane and self-sabotaging way of doing business.

Markus was extremely happy when his OOTP game became available on Steam. It is quite an increase in revenue for him. I think some effort should be made in the future to coordinate the patch releases with Steam so to keep everyone happy. I don't think it's asking too much, specially if there's only a day or two difference in release time.

[GTAltman]

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

Because a company (OOTP) holding itself hostage to the whims of a third-party distributor (Steam) is an inane and self-sabotaging way of doing business.

Cinnamon....I NEVER said to be held hostage by a third party distributor. I DID say that they shouldn't alienate what I believe is a decent portion of their customer base.

But I agree it would be an inanae and self sabotaging way of doing business.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Markus was extremely happy when his OOTP game became available on Steam. It is quite an increase in revenue for him. I think some effort should be made in the future to coordinate the patch releases with Steam so to keep everyone happy. I don't think it's asking too much, specially if there's only a day or two difference in release time.

Sure. But the point raised here still stands that it's also the responsibility of the league commish (IMO) to practice version control. In that context, being on the leading edge of patches is almost always more trouble than it's worth, unless the patches are fixing game-breaking things.

[olivertheorem]

GTAItman, I get it that you're upset and that you're basically losing ground in your online league through no real fault of your own. But what you're missing in Markus' response is that this has been a somewhat fluky situation. As he said, normally it's a day or two between OOTP release and Steam, in which you wouldn't have lost nearly as much time. But in THIS case, there was a significant-enough bug in the patch that Markus & Co chose to hold it from Steam so that those users wouldn't have to deal with said bug(s). Imagine someone installing the buggy patch and simming most of season only to find out their force-starts in the minors didn't work right or some such. Also not good right? That user might be on here posting the reverse of you, complaining that OOTP should have held the patch until the bugs were fixed.

Point is, yes this particular experience with patching has been far from satisfactory to you, but it is also far from normal. If you stick with it, your patch experiences will be better in the future (even if you stay on Steam).

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by GTAltman

But, why should customers that buy directly from the game get a patch sooner than ones who purchased thru STEAM? Your logic makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense to me. The patch (build 33) fixed a serious issue in my league. I don't play online. It benefited me to have it days ago, so I could continue my stalled game. The patch was finished and ready for release. Why should I have to wait while Steam updates, when the patch is available now?

[GTAltman]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

GTAItman, I get it that you're upset and that you're basically losing ground in your online league through no real fault of your own. But what you're missing in Markus' response is that this has been a somewhat fluky situation. As he said, normally it's a day or two between OOTP release and Steam, in which you wouldn't have lost nearly as much time. But in THIS case, there was a significant-enough bug in the patch that Markus & Co chose to hold it from Steam so that those users wouldn't have to deal with said bug(s). Imagine someone installing the buggy patch and simming most of season only to find out their force-starts in the minors didn't work right or some such. Also not good right? That user might be on here posting the reverse of you, complaining that OOTP should have held the patch until the bugs were fixed.

Point is, yes this particular experience with patching has been far from satisfactory to you, but it is also far from normal. If you stick with it, your patch experiences will be better in the future (even if you stay on Steam).

Oliver, my response to you would be simple. STEAM is not an option, for a variety of reasons, this just being one. If I would have known that I was buying from a 3rd party, I wouldn't have done so.

Originally Posted by Orcin

It makes perfect sense to me. The patch (build 33) fixed a serious issue in my league. I don't play online. It benefited me to have it days ago, so I could continue my stalled game. The patch was finished and ready for release. Why should I have to wait while Steam updates, when the patch is available now?

Orcin....basically, give me build 33. then give me build 36 is where I'm going.
That COULD and SHOULD have been done.
I could care less if you get it first and I get it second. Minutes and hours - in the scheme of things - mean nothing.

Days....completely different story. Give me 33 and I can keep up with my league. Give me 36 when you have it.

and I am SURE, I'd be willing to bet that there are more league users then historical league solo artists..
But again, STEAM buyers are still left out as 36 is available to direct buyers, but we have to wait till tomorrow.

So, we're still getting it last and the STEAM customer base is looked down upon.

Dress it up any way you want, put whatever spin you want on it, but we're made to wait for a 5th day. We're no longer near minutes and hours.

And to be perfectly frank, it pisses me off with the answer I've gotten.
The answer I should have gotten was this, "Hey, today is day 4 that some of our customers are unable to use our game - what can we do to make it right? OH, lets release the patch to them as well and we'll deal with it afterwards".

But as the company err's on the side of caution, this customer is seriously considering finding another use for my time and another luxury to spend my money on - because this is not a NEED product. I believe the company has lost sight of that. To be perfectly honest, I can't ever remember hearing about a company that so blatantly disregarded a portion of their customer base.

BTW, not a single post here, not a single thought has been to what can be done to make this right....
Just the opinions about commissioners should have waited, direct buyers shouldn't have to wait, it helped historical leagues....But NOTHING about making things right with STEAM users in leagues.

Now based on this thread it's me venting, but there is no way I can be the only one....just the only one to voice my opinion.

[Déjà Bru]

Meanwhile . . . hee, hee . . . I don't see any major problems being reported with this patch . . .

[Trebro]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Meanwhile . . . hee, hee . . . I don't see any major problems being reported with this patch . . .

I think I'm still gonna wait till the weekend, just to be sure. In the meantime, I threw something together to keep me occupied (see Dynasty board).

[GTAltman]

Originally Posted by Trebro

I think I'm still gonna wait till the weekend, just to be sure. In the meantime, I threw something together to keep me occupied (see Dynasty board).

Or the Grand Daddy of all sports sims....Strat-O-Matic, the most accurate of all sport sim games

[olivertheorem]

Originally Posted by GTAltman

And to be perfectly frank, it pisses me off with the answer I've gotten.
The answer I should have gotten was this, "Hey, today is day 4 that some of our customers are unable to use our game - what can we do to make it right? OH, lets release the patch to them as well and we'll deal with it afterwards".

But as the company err's on the side of caution, this customer is seriously considering finding another use for my time and another luxury to spend my money on - because this is not a NEED product. I believe the company has lost sight of that. To be perfectly honest, I can't ever remember hearing about a company that so blatantly disregarded a portion of their customer base.

GTAItman, again, you're taking an abnormal situation and acting like this is par for the course. It's not. Again, I get it, you're upset and think OOTP should have handled it differently. You're entitled to that opinion. You're also entitled to the opinion expressed above. But it's also fair for me to ask you to agree that this was not a normal situation on both ends, OOTP and its Steam users. You joined in 2012; even with only 9 posts, surely you've been around enough to know this.

(tl:dr version) - You've been told this isn't normal by the dev himself. Practically every longtime member can substantiate his claim. You're upset. We get it. Stop complaining.

[Assos]

Please also remember that most other developers will not do what they did and do a fast patch like they did.
In game play terms, they did this community a big favor.