Questionable AI decisions

[RISP!]

Originally Posted by madJ

The problem is that all/most managers don't want to deal with the heat they would get when they hooked their closer quickly in a tight game. It is easier to deal with a blown save and a loss than to do the right decision and deal with everybody questioning your decision and the "closer" being pissed.

The sabermetrical strategy preset hooks relievers quickly. That's what you are seeing there. I don't see any questionable AI decision. I only see questional human perception of the closer role.

Agreed. Especially when I am playing the game myself and not simming, if I feel that the closer is not having his best day and having control problems, etc... I would pull him and use someone else. Sometimes you just gotta use closer by committee.

Hence, no issues with computer AI pulling the closer.

[Dyzalot]

Most of the time, in a 3 run game, a MLB manager wouldn't even have anyone ready to bring in right away. You might start warming someone up after the HR but rarely have someone warming the start of the ninth with a three run lead and your closer starting it off. Just doesn't seem realistic to me for that to be an arbitrary spot whereby the AI pulls the closer.

[madJ]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Most of the time, in a 3 run game, a MLB manager wouldn't even have anyone ready to bring in right away. You might start warming someone up after the HR but rarely have someone warming the start of the ninth with a three run lead and your closer starting it off. Just doesn't seem realistic to me for that to be an arbitrary spot whereby the AI pulls the closer.

Because real life MLB managers wouldn't do that, just reiterates their overvaluation of the closer role and their willingness to lose the game because the closer would be pissed if taken out of a close game when he just sucks.
Again, nothing wrong with the AI decision. The problem in this case are the decisions by real MLB managers.

[Okay]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that in real life closers don't often come in in close games like they do in OOTP but only in true closing situations?

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by madJ

Because real life MLB managers wouldn't do that, just reiterates their overvaluation of the closer role and their willingness to lose the game because the closer would be pissed if taken out of a close game when he just sucks.
Again, nothing wrong with the AI decision. The problem in this case are the decisions by real MLB managers.

The problem with the AI decision is it is dumb. It is based on an extremely small sample size. Why take out your best reliever because of one bad plate appearance? That is just short sighted thinking. Would you remove Mariano Rivera in his prime if he gives up a leadoff home run? I mean shouldn't the AI understand better than humans the idea of variance? Removing your best pitcher because of one bad plate appearance in a close game makes no logical sense when evaluating from a purely statistical standpoint or when evaluating from the standpoint of this being a sim which should simulate the actions of real life managers.

[Dyzalot]

Is there a point to ranking your pinch hitters in the lineup screen?

[madJ]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

The problem with the AI decision is it is dumb. It is based on an extremely small sample size. Why take out your best reliever because of one bad plate appearance? That is just short sighted thinking. Would you remove Mariano Rivera in his prime if he gives up a leadoff home run? I mean shouldn't the AI understand better than humans the idea of variance? Removing your best pitcher because of one bad plate appearance in a close game makes no logical sense when evaluating from a purely statistical standpoint or when evaluating from the standpoint of this being a sim which should simulate the actions of real life managers.

You obviously don't understand the concept of the sabermetrical approach to managing a baseball team. Yet you question the AI decisions for 18 pages as if you know how a baseball team should be managed.
I'm out of here, since your opinion is set and others trying to make you think about what you believe to know are just wrong in your eyes.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by madJ

You obviously don't understand the concept of the sabermetrical approach to managing a baseball team. Yet you question the AI decisions for 18 pages as if you know how a baseball team should be managed.
I'm out of here, since your opinion is set and others trying to make you think about what you believe to know are just wrong in your eyes.

I know enough about sabermetrics to know that sample size is an important factor in interpreting statistics. There is nothing "sabermetric" about pulling your best pitcher after one hitter just because he got unlucky and gave up a home run.

[DCG12]

I don't usually condone stifiling free speech but in this case I really wish Markus would close this thread and here's why.

I believe it is doing more damage then good. New players who might be thinking about buying this game could come to the forum and see you posting endlessly about poor AI and get turned off the game thinking it's broken. It isn't.

The problem is if you asked 100 members of this forum (or 50 or 10) how they would manage some of these situations you would get a variety of opinions as you have in some cases but you continue to argue your point of view. Your opinion is just one of many. Now I don't disagree that there are sometimes issues with moves the AI makes but not to the extent you make it out to be.

You seem to think there is one and only one way to manage, if that was true why do teams hire managers? Why not just have a book of all the correct moves and have some guy in the dugout make all moves by this book.

I think you have made your point and as has been said before Markus and Matt work to improve the AI with every version and every patch.

So maybe it's time to let this thread die a peaceful death

[Dyzalot]

I'd be fine with the thread dying if people didn't keep using straw man arguments against me like the one you just made. I have repeatedly stated in this thread that I want different managers to manage differently but it should be within the parameters seen in MLB. When was the last time you saw a MLB manager, "sabermetric" or not, remove their closer with a 3 run lead in the ninth after giving up a solo shot to the lead off hitter. Hell, when was the last time a MLB manager removed their closer in a one run game after giving up a lead off home run? It just isn't realistic. And it certainly isn't "sabermetric".

And does anyone want to address the pinch hitting decision of the AI going against the pinch hitters rankings on the depth chart?

[DCG12]

You missed my whole point and then call the old "straw man" arguement.

The point is Markus is aware of the issues that need to be looked at and not all of yours do but he is aware and you continueing your little attention seeking tirades does nothing to make the game better irregardless what your little buddy Toast tells you

Now as I've said about 15 pages ago in this thread I think you are basicly trolling and so nothing further needs to be said by me because you won't listen anyway.

[Dyzalot]

I just call it how I see it. It was a straw man argument. Sorry you don't like being called out for a logical fallacy. And the fact that you "think" I am trolling is further evidence that maybe you are the one that isn't listening. Pretty sure a troll could fabricate much better "examples" of the AI messing up, if that was what I wished to do.

The fact that my examples are only "questionable" kind of fits with the thread title. This was never meant to be the end all and be all of AI decisions that needed tweaking or fixing. Heck, it wasn't even necessarily supposed to be a thread where every example meant something was wrong with the AI. But I certainly think that when the AI pinch hits a lefty against a lefty when righties are available and listed on the depth chart as the preferred pinch hitters, there needs to be some kind of explanation. Would you rather I had made a separate thread for every questionable decision I see?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I just call it how I see it. It was a straw man argument. Sorry you don't like being called out for a logical fallacy. And the fact that you "think" I am trolling is further evidence that maybe you are the one that isn't listening. Pretty sure a troll could fabricate much better "examples" of the AI messing up, if that was what I wished to do.

The fact that my examples are only "questionable" kind of fits with the thread title. This was never meant to be the end all and be all of AI decisions that needed tweaking or fixing. Heck, it wasn't even necessarily supposed to be a thread where every example meant something was wrong with the AI. But I certainly think that when the AI pinch hits a lefty against a lefty when righties are available and listed on the depth chart as the preferred pinch hitters, there needs to be some kind of explanation. Would you rather I had made a separate thread for every questionable decision I see?

I still don't understand why you aren't posting this stuff in the Bug Forum?

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I still don't understand why you aren't posting this stuff in the Bug Forum?

Because as Matt stated earlier in the thread, they aren't really bugs. I felt like posting all of these in the bugs thread would basically be spamming that thread with a bunch of useless posts. That thread is already unwieldy enough without a bunch of posts basically just addressing the AI logic and not highlighting any specific bugs in the workings of the game itself. Also this thread was made by me because in seasons past most of the examples I have posted here I had mentioned as problems in other peoples' threads that were related. However I usually got pushback from members stating that they had played thousands of games and never seen the AI do stuff like this. So finally this year I was motivated to post screen shots of it all to prove that I wasn't just making stuff up.

[madJ]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I still don't understand why you aren't posting this stuff in the Bug Forum?

Because he just wants to push his post count here in this thread.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Because as Matt stated earlier in the thread, they aren't really bugs. I felt like posting all of these in the bugs thread would basically be spamming that thread with a bunch of useless posts. That thread is already unwieldy enough without a bunch of posts basically just addressing the AI logic and not highlighting any specific bugs in the workings of the game itself. Also this thread was made by me because in seasons past most of the examples I have posted here I had mentioned as problems in other peoples' threads that were related. However I usually got pushback from members stating that they had played thousands of games and never seen the AI do stuff like this. So finally this year I was motivated to post screen shots of it all to prove that I wasn't just making stuff up.

My bad. I didn't see Matt's post or maybe I just don't remember reading it. That makes sense.

[Toast]

Originally Posted by DCG12

You missed my whole point and then call the old "straw man" arguement.

The point is Markus is aware of the issues that need to be looked at and not all of yours do but he is aware and you continueing your little attention seeking tirades does nothing to make the game better irregardless what your little buddy Toast tells you

Now as I've said about 15 pages ago in this thread I think you are basicly trolling and so nothing further needs to be said by me because you won't listen anyway.

Again uncalled for to the poster and other member ... typical.

Toast

[Dyzalot]

This one isn't a questionable AI decision so much as a questionable sim result. No screen shot for this so you'll have to take my word for it. Runners on first and second with two outs with a groundball base hit through the right side. Guy from second scores without a throw but guy from first doesn't go to third. I don't have any numbers but I'm pretty sure in modern day MLB this is an auto "take third" spot for the baserunner if only to make the throw go there instead of home to make sure the run scores. Beyond that though, the throw from right to home isn't longer than the throw from right to third (right?) so if the runner from second scores without a throw it seems to me that the runner from first should be taking third as well. In OOTP I see it happen frequently where runner scores from second but runner from first only moves to second in this spot.

[Dyzalot]

Mazzoni has pitched three scoreless innings to this point and is now "tired". There are seven available pitchers in the pen as this is the Wild Card game, my starter went eight innings and I moved all of my other starters except for the guy starting the next series if we win into the pen for this game. After hitting Rojas he is now "exhausted". I'm still using the "sabermetric" preset for strategy settings so where is the "hook" now? Does it make sense that a "saber" guy would hook his closer in the ninth with a three run lead after giving up a lead off home run but then would try to have a reliever pitch a 4th inning when he is obviously spent and you have a ton of options left in the pen?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

This one isn't a questionable AI decision so much as a questionable sim result. No screen shot for this so you'll have to take my word for it. Runners on first and second with two outs with a groundball base hit through the right side. Guy from second scores without a throw but guy from first doesn't go to third. I don't have any numbers but I'm pretty sure in modern day MLB this is an auto "take third" spot for the baserunner if only to make the throw go there instead of home to make sure the run scores. Beyond that though, the throw from right to home isn't longer than the throw from right to third (right?) so if the runner from second scores without a throw it seems to me that the runner from first should be taking third as well. In OOTP I see it happen frequently where runner scores from second but runner from first only moves to second in this spot.

OF could see he had no shot at home so hit the cutoff man.

There's 2 outs so the runner on first is not going to break the rule "you don't make the first or third out at 3b". He is going to stop or the base coach is going to stop him in scoring position unless absolutely sure (100% or not at all) he will make it. The smart play is to stop at 2b.

If he had tried and been thrown out you'd be posting he shouldn't have tried to advance and how terrible this was because he made the third out at 3b.

If the throw home is shorter than the throw to third why would the RF even be tempted to throw out the advancing runner going to 3b? He's not, period. He will either throw home, if he has a shot, or hit the cutoff man. Either way if the play is setup properly the throw will be going over the cutoff man who will be lined up between the OF and home plate.

With nobody out he more than likely doesn't advance to third risking making the first out there (dependent on score, inning, and if it's Ricky Henderson or John Kruk). Again the smart play is to stop in scoring position. With one out trying to advance may be a good play and worth the risk with the same caveat of who is running, score, inning etc.