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Old 06-24-2015, 11:41 AM   #181
TribeFanInNC
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Gonna bump this thread now that there is evidence that Pete Rose bet on baseball games that he played in, not just managed. Does this change anybodies mind?
I have to admit, this does change my mind. I was pretty much in the "4200+ hits belongs, let bygones be bygones" camp for 10 years. But listening to the increased coverage has really changed my mind. I think I was really just ignorant to the facts behind the situation. Here's a couple of the things I listened to that really informed me:

Buster Olney had the reporter that broke the additional proof on the ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast yesterday: Another Thorn - ESPN

John Dowd (original Rose investigator) on the Jim Rome Show: John Dowd « The Jim Rome Show

I think the real key is that Rose was in debt to organized crime while acting as a player and a manager. You just can't forgive creating that type of conflict of interest in the game.

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Old 06-24-2015, 11:58 AM   #182
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I think the real key is that Rose was debt to organized crime while acting as a player and a manager. You just can't forgive creating that type of conflict of interest in the game.
Does acknowledging the number of hits he got during his career forgive him for this? Is the thinking that putting him in the Hall of Fame would be the equivalent of a full pardon for everything he has ever done wrong?

If a guy can go out and get that many hits while having a gambling problem, that probably adds to the achievement. A lot of today's players have a difficult time hitting the ball without anything else to worry about.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:10 PM   #183
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I think the real key is that Rose was debt to organized crime while acting as a player and a manager. You just can't forgive creating that type of conflict of interest in the game.
Yes, for hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.... to the mob... as a player/manager.

I get it, Rose was an amazing player. Because of that, his accomplishments are currently in the museum portion of the HOF. His 4200+ hits, his championships with the big red machine, all documented and on display right now. He currently isn't being ignored by the hall by any means.

I don't have evidence that he threw a meaningless game here or there, but I wouldn't put it past him. Because of that fact, I just don't think he deserves to have his plaque in the actual "Hall" portion of the hall of fame.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:22 PM   #184
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I suppose it depends on what you think the Hall of Fame is for. Is it for achievements on the field or not?
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:29 PM   #185
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I suppose it depends on what you think the Hall of Fame is for. Is it for achievements on the field or not?
No, I don't think it's 100% on the field actions. If it were, Bill Mazeroski would not be in the HOF.

Edit: And Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, and others would be in.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:29 PM   #186
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I suppose it depends on what you think the Hall of Fame is for. Is it for achievements on the field or not?
It is not.

It's a place where Rabbitt Maranville stands next to Joe Dimaggio.

A place where Guys that bet on the game are in (Cobb & Speaker) while another (Rose) is not.

A place where drug abusers are in (Molitor) or out (Bonds).

A place that honors smugglers (Cepeda) and admitted cheats (Perry) but freezes out liars (Clemens).

A place where somebody didn't think Maddox belonged but another guy thought that Jacque Jones did.

I don't really know what it is or isn't actually but it isn't likely what any of us think is is or should be. It's some other messed up thing.
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Old 06-24-2015, 02:06 PM   #187
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You might want to change that to being before the professional era (aka 1870). Gambling was considered a bannable offense by 1876. Just ask Jim Devlin.
No, I do not think it was. THROWING games was bannable, as Mr. Devlin and his cohorts can attest, but I have read of the practice of players pooling stakes continuing until at least the 1880's.

(I'll see if I can find references).
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Old 06-24-2015, 02:12 PM   #188
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It is interesting to read the different opinions on these things. I suspect Pete Rose is not a very likable man, and surely has made lots of mistakes in his life, but his achievements on the field are deserving enough. It doesn't really matter to me that he had a gambling problem. Even if somebody could tie any of his in-game actions directly to bets he had, it doesn't erase any of those hits.
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Old 06-24-2015, 02:19 PM   #189
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Personally, I do not really care whether Pete ever gets in the Hall of Fame. Whether he is in or out will make no difference to his status as an all-time great player.

Now, Dave Concepcion, on the other hand, needs to be enshrined to secure his legacy and deserves to be put in.

And those of you suggesting that Pete may have thrown games, did not ever watch Pete play. He secured his status as an all-time great player a long time before he ever passed Ty Cobb with his all-out style of competing.

I have recently been reading a string of books about scouts and scouting and a theme is recurrent in them: Most of the scouts back in the 70's and 80's were old-time ball players from the 1930's and 40's. And they almost universally could not stand the prima donna ball players of the present, especially when they went on strike in 1981. But more than one has mentioned something like , "These players today are better athletes than the players in my day, but we were better ball players. You can have the whole lot of them, except Pete Rose. That guy knows how to play ball."
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Old 06-25-2015, 12:52 AM   #190
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Whether Pete threw games or not is irrelevant. Betting on baseball as a manager is easily the worst thing you can do in terms of its potential impact on the game of baseball. And it's just as bad to bet on the team you're managing as it is to bet on the other guys.

And for the love of god can people stop bringing up Cobb and Speaker. Landis exonerated them both, so what they did is also irrelevant.

There will always be people who want to put Rose into the HoF while the only thing we've determined that he lied about was gambling on baseball. If details about his probable PED usage ever came to light, he'd actually have less support. That's kind of sad.
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Old 06-25-2015, 08:43 AM   #191
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And for the love of god can people stop bringing up Cobb and Speaker. Landis exonerated them both, so what they did is also irrelevant.

Nixon was pardoned, so I guess what he did was irrelevant too.
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Old 06-25-2015, 06:12 PM   #192
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What Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Richard Nixon did are all irrelevant to what Pete Rose did. Nothing that any of the three did mitigates Pete Rose's crime against Baseball.

Let's review:
  • Pete Rose bet on baseball games in which he had a duty to perform.
  • Baseball forbids participants from betting on baseball games in which they have a duty to perform.
  • The penalty for a participant betting on a game in which he has a duty to perform is placement on Baseball's permanent ineligibility list.
  • Pete Rose was fully aware that his activity was forbidden by baseball and he was aware of the penalty for that activity, and yet he engaged in the activity anyway.
  • Pete Rose was caught engaging in this activity, and then admitted engaging in this activity.
  • Therefore, Pete Rose fully earned his placement on Baseball's permanent ineligibility list.

[/CASE]
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Old 06-25-2015, 06:58 PM   #193
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The other case... Pete Rose is the all-time leader in hits. The Hall of Fame exists to acknowledge great achievements in the game. Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame.
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Old 06-25-2015, 07:31 PM   #194
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Baseball also bans anyone from being employed in the gambling industry, yet Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were both hired by Casinos.

They were both banned from baseball and subsequently reinstated.

Would you be comfortable with those two being out of the Hall of Fame?

What Pete did was wrong, but he NEVER threw a game and to say that what he did caused real harm to his team is a real stretch. Appearances of impropriety are important and he justifiably was punished. But to say that the punishment must be permanent in order to have any meaning is very silly. He has been shamed and humiliated for 25 years.

Personally, I think Pete is better off with the ban as the notoriety gives him ample opportunity for employment. Once he is reinstated, he will find that most everyone will lose interest in him and his opportunities for pay days will dwindle.
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:00 AM   #195
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If the club has Ty Cobb in it, you can be sure their standards aren't really as high as they imagine them to be. There is a lot of over the top righteousness invoked when Shoeless Joe or Pete Rose are talked about. I'd rather have those two in than some of the wife beaters and general all around douchebags that litter the place already.
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:25 PM   #196
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Look, on the field he set an all time record and was one of the best to play the game. He deserves the Hall based on that.
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Old 06-26-2015, 02:09 PM   #197
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I think it's all very simple. In the words of the old saying, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Rose did the crime.
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Old 06-26-2015, 02:22 PM   #198
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I'm still in the "induct him after he dies" camp. Same should have been done with Shoeless Joe long ago, although Pete, IMO, willingly did more wrong than Joe did.
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Old 06-26-2015, 03:03 PM   #199
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I'm still in the "induct him after he dies" camp. Same should have been done with Shoeless Joe long ago, although Pete, IMO, willingly did more wrong than Joe did.
Let's see...Pete made bets that his team would win games.....and Joe Jackson took money to throw a World Series....yeah, Pete did way worse.....

Joe Jackson was not Rube Waddell. He knew what the money was for. And he was not a simpleton. He could not read and write very well, but that was not that uncommon in South Carolina at the turn of the century. He ran a successful business after his playing days. He was as intelligent as most ball players were.

The ring leaders needed Joe to show the gamblers they had a star player in on the deal. They may have used his name without his permission, but he took the money just the same. He probably did not try to do anything during the games to earn the money as the other conspirators assured him that they would take care of everything.

Now, I don't care whether he is reinstated or not, but to say that he is more innocent than Pete is not very fair.
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Old 06-26-2015, 04:02 PM   #200
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The evidence from the betting slips is pretty clear. Rose not only bet on baseball, but he also bet on a wide variety of sports. He was also really bad at it, and he was seriously in hock to organized crime figures. No, we have no evidence that he threw games. But we do have evidence that he was in a position that would have made it difficult to say no if he had been told to throw games, and we certainly can't prove he didn't throw any. Rose was in that position solely because of his own actions, and baseball cannot allow that. This is qualitatively different from a guy who likes to bet a few (or even a few hundred) bucks on baseball every once in a while. Rose placed both himself and the game at risk by betting on a daily basis and losing these huge amounts of money. I've been sympathetic to Rose in the past, but this is bad stuff.
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