Scherzer--Bush League Break-up?

Honorable_Pawn · 06-21-2015, 11:23 AM

So, I assume that we all saw that there was almost a perfect game last night. Instead, we watched an anti-climatic no-hitter. It was suggested that Jose Tabata intentionally stepped into the pitch in order to break up the perfect game.

This poll, however, is not to debate whether Tabata intentionally stepped into the pitch. Either he did or he didn't. What I want to know is if you think it is bush league to break up a perfect game by intentionally stepping into a pitch. This is very similar to the bunt-argument. Maybe it is actually worse.

I am curious to see what you think.

Personally, I was disappointed to see the perfect game broken-up like that but I do not see the problem. If I was the guy at the plate I would do everything thing I can to break that crap up.

The defense of my position are the following concepts spoken in plain-English form:

1. "You ain't getting no perfect game from me...ever."

2. "I don't care about tradition, my job is to get on base."

3. "The pitcher has to earn it. If I lay down like Brett Favre did during that whole Strahan sack record sack fiasco I have tarnished the accomplishment.

These are the 3 points that I will defend should you disagree. On the other hand, If we are in agreement then do you have a better reason than I have listed? Again, this poll is not really about Tabata but I'm more than happy to talk about that too.

So, what do you think?

Airdrop01 · 06-21-2015, 11:47 AM

I agree. It's a bunch of media fatties for the most part complaining, and their sycophantic followers.

First, everyone, and i mean everyone who has ever played baseball knows that you do everything you can to break up a no hitter or perfect game. I think that is tradition.

Secondly, everyone also knows that if you do it with a bunt, or stepping into a pitch, etc., you are probably getting drilled the next day. That is also traditional.

Thirdly, I'm not at all sure that I agree that he leaned into the pitch with intent but it is immaterial because he did what he should do even if we concede he wanted to get hit.

Lastly, I agee with your sentiment that this is to be earned. That is why it is perfect. No badly located pitches is a very hard thing to do for nine innings.

Good post Honorable Pawn.

RchW · 06-21-2015, 12:10 PM

I think it depends a lot on the score. If you are down 1-4 runs do whatever you need. Down 6 I felt it was a little bush on his part. I accept the fact that my made up rules of conduct are no better than anyone else. Scherzer could have made a better pitch too.

Honorable_Pawn · 06-21-2015, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airdrop01

I agree. It's a bunch of media fatties for the most part complaining, and their sycophantic followers.

First, everyone, and i mean everyone who has ever played baseball knows that you do everything you can to break up a no hitter or perfect game. I think that is tradition.

Secondly, everyone also knows that if you do it with a bunt, or stepping into a pitch, etc., you are probably getting drilled the next day. That is also traditional.

Thirdly, I'm not at all sure that I agree that he leaned into the pitch with intent but it is immaterial because he did what he should do even if we concede he wanted to get hit.

Lastly, I agee with your sentiment that this is to be earned. That is why it is perfect. No badly located pitches is a very hard thing to do for nine innings.

Good post Honorable Pawn.

Thanks for the reply.

He better get drilled today--first pitch to him. If I'm the manager I call up a meathead from AAA today to start.

I think he meant to step into that pitch. He drops his arm right into it. On the other hand, it is natural to try and protect the head with less important appendages.

It is bad to pitch at the head because in the head is the brain.

Honorable_Pawn · 06-21-2015, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

I think it depends a lot on the score. If you are down 1-4 runs do whatever you need. Down 6 I felt it was a little bush on his part. I accept the fact that my made up rules of conduct are no better than anyone else. Scherzer could have made a better pitch too.

Oh, down 6. Yeah it's definitely bush league. But what if a bush league move like that sparked a 7-run rally to win the game?

Is it bush league then?

philthepat · 06-21-2015, 01:02 PM

Could have been worse...

CD1083 · 06-21-2015, 02:34 PM

Considering it's against the rules, yeah, it's bush league.

I'm fine with bunting, this though was too much.

ra7c7er · 06-21-2015, 02:45 PM

I don't think it was bush league at all.

Is he supposed to just stand there and let 3 balls go by? If so in what inning do you expect the opponent to just give up to allow a no-hitter.

So many stupid "unwritten rules" in baseball.

RchW · 06-21-2015, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

Oh, down 6. Yeah it's definitely bush league. But what if a bush league move like that sparked a 7-run rally to win the game?

Is it bush league then?

And I made that point. My made up rules are just that. Mine.

Honorable_Pawn · 06-21-2015, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CD1083

Considering it's against the rules, yeah, it's bush league.

I'm fine with bunting, this though was too much.

This is a good point that quite honestly is difficult to trump but I will give it a try. First I will make some assumptions:

1. There are rules
2. There are violations
3. There is a penalty for violating a rule

Let me first begin with two questions.

Did any of the umpires call a rule violation? Was the batter penalized for committing an infraction?

Since there was no violation called and there was no penalty issued I do not conclude that there was a rule infraction. What we are down to is intent. And that cannot be convincingly demonstrated.

Although I appreciate you playing devil's advocate I think that without a call I cannot agree that what happened last night was against the rules.

The Game · 06-21-2015, 03:24 PM

A player is supposed to make an effort to get out of the way not just drop the elbow, which was padded into the pitch. I don't really have a problem with what he did.

Déjà Bru · 06-21-2015, 04:12 PM

Actually, HP, this was your best point, not one of the three that you formally listed:

"If I was the guy at the plate I would do everything thing I can to break that crap up."

Who in the hell wants to be on the wrong end of a no-hitter, let alone a perfect game? And be the last batter to be retired?

So sure, if the pitcher makes a mistake (I bold this word intentionally, since a mistake <> a perfect game) of pitching me too far inside and I can legitimately get hit on the elbow, I am going for it. No shame, no guilt.

The only thing I have a question about is, was the ball in the strike zone and is it an infraction to lean into a pitch that is a strike? Because then it is up to the umpire to keep things fair.

Other than that, Scherzer made a mistake that cost him a perfect game. Tabata was just being a ballplayer with pride, not a sore-loser meanie.

Jason Moyer · 06-22-2015, 12:35 AM

I don't even think he did it on purpose. Everyone's focused on his elbow moving downwards, but he also moved it closer to his body. I also think people need to stop looking at it in slow motion and actually watch the video at the speed it happened.

Jason Moyer · 06-22-2015, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

The only thing I have a question about is, was the ball in the strike zone

Nope. It wasn't all that close, either.

Questdog · 06-22-2015, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

This is a good point that quite honestly is difficult to trump but I will give it a try. First I will make some assumptions:

1. There are rules
2. There are violations
3. There is a penalty for violating a rule

Let me first begin with two questions.

Did any of the umpires call a rule violation? Was the batter penalized for committing an infraction?

Since there was no violation called and there was no penalty issued I do not conclude that there was a rule infraction. What we are down to is intent. And that cannot be convincingly demonstrated.

Although I appreciate you playing devil's advocate I think that without a call I cannot agree that what happened last night was against the rules.

It is against the rules to intentionally allow a ball to hit you. The batter is supposed to make an effort to get out of the way, but MLB umpires NEVER enforce the rule. That does not mean there was no infraction....

It is one of my pet peeves. Also, I believe that if you wear protection, other than a helmet, and you get hit on that protection, you should not get first base, though this is not the rule.

Once, in a high school game, I was beaned 3 times and not once did I get first base, because the umpire said I did not try to get out of the way. Which was true on the first one, but not the two that followed.

Jason · 06-22-2015, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

It is against the rules to intentionally allow a ball to hit you. The batter is supposed to make an effort to get out of the way, but MLB umpires NEVER enforce the rule. That does not mean there was no infraction....
.

Exactly. He didn't even try to get out of the way, he leaned into it. Bush league, cowardly and childish.

Airdrop01 · 06-22-2015, 01:24 AM

Man, have any of you saying Tabata leaned in ever played baseball? He was triggering and pulled back. Looking at slow motion replays means nothing. Basing it on that makes you sound like a guy who's closest thing to standing in against a pitcher was rolling the dice in stratomatic.

It was the eighth pitch of the at bat, by the way.

I'm shocked at Questdogs story. I'm not questioning it, but I've only once ever seen it happen and I've played a lot of baseball and coached even more.

Anyway, I think even an ex player/Nats announcer who claims they know he leaned in is looking for excuses. Target by the way was low and away. Pitch was way in and clearly off target. It was a mistake. You have to be started to cover the plate and unless you expect a guy to just go up there and give away his at bat, the only real baseball play is what Tabata did. I think.

I just don't even agree he leaned in so to me the whole thing is a media conjured debate over a fictional event.

Questdog · 06-22-2015, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airdrop01

Man, have any of you saying Tabata leaned in ever played baseball? He was triggering and pulled back. Looking at slow motion replays means nothing. Basing it on that makes you sound like a guy who's closest thing to standing in against a pitcher was rolling the dice in stratomatic.

It was the eighth pitch of the at bat, by the way.

I'm shocked at Questdogs story. I'm not questioning it, but I've only once ever seen it happen and I've played a lot of baseball and coached even more.

Anyway,

The third time, I looked back at the umpire when he made the call and he said, "Oh! If I'd known it was you, I would have let you take the base."

And I said, "Well, now you know it is me, so let me take the base."

But he did not.

This was in 1980, so things may be different nowadays.....

Airdrop01 · 06-22-2015, 01:51 AM

The cool thing is you have a fun story!

ra7c7er · 06-22-2015, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

It is against the rules to intentionally allow a ball to hit you. The batter is supposed to make an effort to get out of the way, but MLB umpires NEVER enforce the rule. That does not mean there was no infraction....

It is one of my pet peeves. Also, I believe that if you wear protection, other than a helmet, and you get hit on that protection, you should not get first base, though this is not the rule.

Once, in a high school game, I was beaned 3 times and not once did I get first base, because the umpire said I did not try to get out of the way. Which was true on the first one, but not the two that followed.

That ump would have never lasted where I played.

I had a similar experience though. I backed off the plate because the ball was running in and even as I moved back it still hit me. The ump said I moved back into the pitch. Yep an 11 year old with a .087 batting average knows how to read how much a pitch is going to run in. Even the opposing coach came out to talk to the ump. Never saw that guy ump a game again that year.

View Poll Results: Is stepping into a pitch in order to break up a perfect game bush league?
Yes	19	61.29%
Nol	12	38.71%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

06-21-2015, 11:23 AM	#1
Honorable_Pawn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 6,407	Scherzer--Bush League Break-up? So, I assume that we all saw that there was almost a perfect game last night. Instead, we watched an anti-climatic no-hitter. It was suggested that Jose Tabata intentionally stepped into the pitch in order to break up the perfect game. This poll, however, is not to debate whether Tabata intentionally stepped into the pitch. Either he did or he didn't. What I want to know is if you think it is bush league to break up a perfect game by intentionally stepping into a pitch. This is very similar to the bunt-argument. Maybe it is actually worse. I am curious to see what you think. Personally, I was disappointed to see the perfect game broken-up like that but I do not see the problem. If I was the guy at the plate I would do everything thing I can to break that crap up. The defense of my position are the following concepts spoken in plain-English form: 1. "You ain't getting no perfect game from me...ever." 2. "I don't care about tradition, my job is to get on base." 3. "The pitcher has to earn it. If I lay down like Brett Favre did during that whole Strahan sack record sack fiasco I have tarnished the accomplishment. These are the 3 points that I will defend should you disagree. On the other hand, If we are in agreement then do you have a better reason than I have listed? Again, this poll is not really about Tabata but I'm more than happy to talk about that too. So, what do you think? __________________ PBA Quickstart for OOTP Background Images Collection All PBA games broadcast live on Steam. Last edited by Honorable_Pawn; 06-22-2015 at 07:05 PM.

06-21-2015, 12:10 PM	#3
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I think it depends a lot on the score. If you are down 1-4 runs do whatever you need. Down 6 I felt it was a little bush on his part. I accept the fact that my made up rules of conduct are no better than anyone else. Scherzer could have made a better pitch too. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

06-21-2015, 03:24 PM	#11
The Game Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Inside The Game Posts: 30,937	A player is supposed to make an effort to get out of the way not just drop the elbow, which was padded into the pitch. I don't really have a problem with what he did. __________________ Go today don't wait for tomorrow It isn't promised, all the time you get borrowed Don't live your life for other people Don't bottle your emotions till they crack and fill a couple just sorrows Take your mind and refocus go get a paper write your goals out Throw your middle fingers to all your haters "Stay Strong"

06-21-2015, 04:12 PM	#12
Déjà Bru Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Long Island Posts: 11,742	Actually, HP, this was your best point, not one of the three that you formally listed: "If I was the guy at the plate I would do everything thing I can to break that crap up." Who in the hell wants to be on the wrong end of a no-hitter, let alone a perfect game? And be the last batter to be retired? So sure, if the pitcher makes a mistake (I bold this word intentionally, since a mistake <> a perfect game) of pitching me too far inside and I can legitimately get hit on the elbow, I am going for it. No shame, no guilt. The only thing I have a question about is, was the ball in the strike zone and is it an infraction to lean into a pitch that is a strike? Because then it is up to the umpire to keep things fair. Other than that, Scherzer made a mistake that cost him a perfect game. Tabata was just being a ballplayer with pride, not a sore-loser meanie. __________________ - Bru

06-21-2015, 11:47 AM	#2
Airdrop01 All Star Starter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Lenexa, KS / Wilson, WY Posts: 1,354	I agree. It's a bunch of media fatties for the most part complaining, and their sycophantic followers. First, everyone, and i mean everyone who has ever played baseball knows that you do everything you can to break up a no hitter or perfect game. I think that is tradition. Secondly, everyone also knows that if you do it with a bunt, or stepping into a pitch, etc., you are probably getting drilled the next day. That is also traditional. Thirdly, I'm not at all sure that I agree that he leaned into the pitch with intent but it is immaterial because he did what he should do even if we concede he wanted to get hit. Lastly, I agee with your sentiment that this is to be earned. That is why it is perfect. No badly located pitches is a very hard thing to do for nine innings. Good post Honorable Pawn.

06-21-2015, 01:02 PM	#6
philthepat Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Dover, UK Posts: 279	Could have been worse...

06-21-2015, 02:34 PM	#7
CD1083 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,590	Considering it's against the rules, yeah, it's bush league. I'm fine with bunting, this though was too much.

06-21-2015, 02:45 PM	#8
ra7c7er All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,098	I don't think it was bush league at all. Is he supposed to just stand there and let 3 balls go by? If so in what inning do you expect the opponent to just give up to allow a no-hitter. So many stupid "unwritten rules" in baseball.

06-22-2015, 12:35 AM	#13
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,106	I don't even think he did it on purpose. Everyone's focused on his elbow moving downwards, but he also moved it closer to his body. I also think people need to stop looking at it in slow motion and actually watch the video at the speed it happened. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

06-22-2015, 01:24 AM	#17
Airdrop01 All Star Starter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Lenexa, KS / Wilson, WY Posts: 1,354	Man, have any of you saying Tabata leaned in ever played baseball? He was triggering and pulled back. Looking at slow motion replays means nothing. Basing it on that makes you sound like a guy who's closest thing to standing in against a pitcher was rolling the dice in stratomatic. It was the eighth pitch of the at bat, by the way. I'm shocked at Questdogs story. I'm not questioning it, but I've only once ever seen it happen and I've played a lot of baseball and coached even more. Anyway, I think even an ex player/Nats announcer who claims they know he leaned in is looking for excuses. Target by the way was low and away. Pitch was way in and clearly off target. It was a mistake. You have to be started to cover the plate and unless you expect a guy to just go up there and give away his at bat, the only real baseball play is what Tabata did. I think. I just don't even agree he leaned in so to me the whole thing is a media conjured debate over a fictional event. Last edited by Airdrop01; 06-22-2015 at 01:38 AM.

06-22-2015, 01:51 AM	#19
Airdrop01 All Star Starter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Lenexa, KS / Wilson, WY Posts: 1,354	The cool thing is you have a fun story!