Why Does the AI Do This?

TomVeal · 05-24-2015, 01:21 AM

In the top of the 8th, Pittsburgh is ahead by one run and has a man on third with two out. The pitcher is up. Only one pinch hitter is available, a guy called up from AAA a couple of weeks ago (to fill a gap left by a trade) but a decent hitter. The AI chooses to have the pitcher bat for himself. He strikes out. The AI then puts in a new pitcher for the 9th (who, happily, gets the save).

Whatever was the AI thinking?

slugga27 · 05-24-2015, 03:30 AM

Was he their backup catcher? If so, that's why.

TomVeal · 05-24-2015, 08:54 AM

No, the remaining pinch hitter was a utility outfielder. The backup catcher had already come in as a defensive replacement.

SteveP · 05-24-2015, 12:41 PM

Most likely answer:

The pitcher was not tired or close to being tired or close to his pitch count limit, and his team was ahead. Had his team been behind, the AI would probably have sent in the PH.

TLB1975 · 05-24-2015, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveP

Most likely answer:

The pitcher was not tired or close to being tired or close to his pitch count limit, and his team was ahead. Had his team been behind, the AI would probably have sent in the PH.

But why would the AI have him bat and then replace him before he throws a pitch in the next inning?

DCG12 · 05-24-2015, 12:52 PM

I suspect that it was because he was the last man on the bench and the AI was protecting itself against having to use a pitcher defensively if an injury occurred.

Had they been behind and "needed" the run then it would pinch hit.

endgame · 05-24-2015, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLB1975

But why would the AI have him bat and then replace him before he throws a pitch in the next inning?

Doesn't that ensure the PH stays available, as the sub is a RP instead of using up that option?

Granted, there are a few glaring AI decisions spotted and documented by faithful and conscientious users, but I think they're exceptions. The vast majority of the AI debates I've read are akin to the post-game arguments at the bar or in the living room over decisions that we 'think' we'd have made a bit differently, or drastically differently, but in the end they're really calls of a literally debatable nature, like nearly every ball game can contain.

pstrickert · 05-24-2015, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLB1975

But why would the AI have him bat and then replace him before he throws a pitch in the next inning?

I posted a number of perplexing examples of poor AI on the beta forum. Supposedly, Markus will reexamine these issues sometime soon. As I recall, it didn't take me long at all to spot some real head-scratchers. So, I don't consider the issues rare, unfortunately.

Grafton19 · 05-24-2015, 01:31 PM

Issue is some people really need to have the AI do the best job possible to avoid running their whole team which can be time-consuming, yet a lot of moves can be so head scratching you have to go in and create workarounds to fix.

Okay · 05-24-2015, 01:57 PM

I've seen the game do this when more than one pinch hitter has been available. It's... unorthodox to say the least

TomVeal · 05-24-2015, 01:57 PM

When I posted my question, I was looking for a rationale, not claiming that I'd found a bug. The idea that the AI was less afraid that the closer would give up a run than that a fielder would be injured makes some sense. In context (a league with injuries set to "low"), it makes less, but the AI probably doesn't take injury settings into account. Not the decision that I would have made, but not irrational.

TGH-Adfabre · 05-24-2015, 04:59 PM

Keeping the PH available makes sense to me.
What is your "Use Closer" setting?
What kind of league is this?
Was the replacement reliever your closer?
Is he substantially better than the RP he replaced?

SteveP · 05-24-2015, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLB1975

But why would the AI have him bat and then replace him before he throws a pitch in the next inning?

Probably because the league settings favor the use of a closer in the ninth inning. So, at that point (the ninth inning), the status of the SP isn't a factor. When he came up to bat in the 8th, his condition and pitch count were the only things that mattered.

The AI has no memory of prior actions and no method for ensuring it is acting in a consistent way. For example, it can evaluate a situation or player differently whenever a re-evaluation is called for, especially when it's a close call. It is not all that rare for the pitcher to hit in one inning and be replaced in the next, even in earlier innings. I don't know that there is any thought being given to trying to fix this.

SteveP · 05-24-2015, 06:00 PM

I would also suggest checking the Team Strategy slider for "pinch hit for pitchers." It's possible that it's a factor in this.

TomVeal · 05-25-2015, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGH-Adfabre

Keeping the PH available makes sense to me.
What is your "Use Closer" setting?
What kind of league is this?
Was the replacement reliever your closer?
Is he substantially better than the RP he replaced?

The settings are such that the AI was virtually certain to bring in the closer in the 9th inning. That was pretty clearly the right thing to do. What puzzled me was that it didn't pinch hit for the current pitcher.

Matt Arnold · 05-25-2015, 12:33 PM

I would consider this somewhere between a bug and simply a sub-optimal AI. We try to make sure that every case that you would replace a pitcher at the start of an inning, you would pinch hit for them in the inning before.

I mean, certainly if the pitcher batted, and then the team went and scored a few more runs, that's different. But in the above case, I personally don't see a reasonable argument for letting him hit, given that the closer was subbed in next inning anyways.

jaysdailydose · 05-25-2015, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I would consider this somewhere between a bug and simply a sub-optimal AI. We try to make sure that every case that you would replace a pitcher at the start of an inning, you would pinch hit for them in the inning before.

I mean, certainly if the pitcher batted, and then the team went and scored a few more runs, that's different. But in the above case, I personally don't see a reasonable argument for letting him hit, given that the closer was subbed in next inning anyways.

Is it possible in the code for the AI to have wanted to keep at least one hitter on his bench? It is only a one-run game, and while it may be sub-optimal, its a close game and the AI may be trying to save a guy for extra innings...

Not saying it's a "good" call, but I could definitely see a manager not wanting to use the last bat on his bench in the 8th inning, especially in a no-DH league where we have pitchers hitting...

I could see myself making this decision in a close game, so I actually think its a good thing that a manager in OOTP might try something "sub-optimal" as long as it has sound reasoning behind it. That's just my opinion, though...

IsaacR · 05-25-2015, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaysdailydose

Is it possible in the code for the AI to have wanted to keep at least one hitter on his bench? It is only a one-run game, and while it may be sub-optimal, its a close game and the AI may be trying to save a guy for extra innings...

Not saying it's a "good" call, but I could definitely see a manager not wanting to use the last bat on his bench in the 8th inning, especially in a no-DH league where we have pitchers hitting...

I could see myself making this decision in a close game, so I actually think its a good thing that a manager in OOTP might try something "sub-optimal" as long as it has sound reasoning behind it. That's just my opinion, though...

In real-life, Buck Showalter did something similar against the Marlins. 8th inning, bases loaded, 2 out, and Ryan Lavarnway (who has no business owning a bat) up. JJ Hardy was getting the day off, so Caleb Joseph was the only guy left. Lavarnway grounded out. Next inning, Caleb pinch hit for the pitcher. Didn't make sense, and may have cost us the game, but who knows?

jaysdailydose · 05-25-2015, 02:10 PM

Thank you for tracking that down! That's my exact point, you have to leave room for the AI to make a possibly sub-optimal, but still feasible, decision.

I'm actually very interested to see a box score of game in OP. Curious how the AI had deployed the bench to where it was down to last man on bench in the 8th with a lead... had it used defensive replacements, or all pinch hitters, etc.

It is sometimes hard to know for sure without seeing exactly how the game played out.

Now, if the AI is making this decision every time, that's a different thing altogether. But that we can find logic at all of why the AI made the decision leads me to believe that it's just the AI getting better at simulating all different kinds of managerial styles.

Padreman · 05-25-2015, 02:49 PM

A real manager might have to consider the possibility of going extra innings on a close game so he would save the pinch hitter for later use

05-24-2015, 01:21 AM	#1
TomVeal All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Spanaway, Washington Posts: 1,238	Why Does the AI Do This? In the top of the 8th, Pittsburgh is ahead by one run and has a man on third with two out. The pitcher is up. Only one pinch hitter is available, a guy called up from AAA a couple of weeks ago (to fill a gap left by a trade) but a decent hitter. The AI chooses to have the pitcher bat for himself. He strikes out. The AI then puts in a new pitcher for the 9th (who, happily, gets the save). Whatever was the AI thinking?

05-24-2015, 04:59 PM	#12
TGH-Adfabre Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,599	Keeping the PH available makes sense to me. What is your "Use Closer" setting? What kind of league is this? Was the replacement reliever your closer? Is he substantially better than the RP he replaced? __________________ You mock me, therefore I am My wife

05-25-2015, 02:10 PM	#19
jaysdailydose Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,325	Thank you for tracking that down! That's my exact point, you have to leave room for the AI to make a possibly sub-optimal, but still feasible, decision. I'm actually very interested to see a box score of game in OP. Curious how the AI had deployed the bench to where it was down to last man on bench in the 8th with a lead... had it used defensive replacements, or all pinch hitters, etc. It is sometimes hard to know for sure without seeing exactly how the game played out. Now, if the AI is making this decision every time, that's a different thing altogether. But that we can find logic at all of why the AI made the decision leads me to believe that it's just the AI getting better at simulating all different kinds of managerial styles. __________________ Manager - Motor City Marshals Perfect Manager/Discord Name: jaysdailydose

05-25-2015, 02:49 PM	#20
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,138	A real manager might have to consider the possibility of going extra innings on a close game so he would save the pinch hitter for later use __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

05-24-2015, 03:30 AM	#2
slugga27 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 1,272	Was he their backup catcher? If so, that's why.

05-24-2015, 08:54 AM	#3
TomVeal All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Spanaway, Washington Posts: 1,238	No, the remaining pinch hitter was a utility outfielder. The backup catcher had already come in as a defensive replacement.

05-24-2015, 12:41 PM	#4
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	Most likely answer: The pitcher was not tired or close to being tired or close to his pitch count limit, and his team was ahead. Had his team been behind, the AI would probably have sent in the PH.

05-24-2015, 12:52 PM	#6
DCG12 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Traveling through another dimension-not one of only sight and sound,but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundries are those of imagination. Posts: 1,157	I suspect that it was because he was the last man on the bench and the AI was protecting itself against having to use a pitcher defensively if an injury occurred. Had they been behind and "needed" the run then it would pinch hit.

05-24-2015, 01:31 PM	#9
Grafton19 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 470	Issue is some people really need to have the AI do the best job possible to avoid running their whole team which can be time-consuming, yet a lot of moves can be so head scratching you have to go in and create workarounds to fix.

05-24-2015, 01:57 PM	#10
Okay Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2014 Location: OK Posts: 53	I've seen the game do this when more than one pinch hitter has been available. It's... unorthodox to say the least

05-24-2015, 06:00 PM	#14
SteveP Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3,109	I would also suggest checking the Team Strategy slider for "pinch hit for pitchers." It's possible that it's a factor in this.

05-25-2015, 12:33 PM	#16
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,625	I would consider this somewhere between a bug and simply a sub-optimal AI. We try to make sure that every case that you would replace a pitcher at the start of an inning, you would pinch hit for them in the inning before. I mean, certainly if the pitcher batted, and then the team went and scored a few more runs, that's different. But in the above case, I personally don't see a reasonable argument for letting him hit, given that the closer was subbed in next inning anyways.