Smart, Hard Worker Won't Learn New Position

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Questdog

The only position that would utilize a pivot rating would be second base. They are the only fielders that have to receive a throw and then turn around 180 degrees and throw it, all while avoiding the runner who is trying to interfere with the process.

It is a skill that should be modeled in baseball games because there is a real difference between how effective various players are in doing this. Some (Mazeroski) raise it to an art form and others never master the basic process (Rose, Carew).

However, there is no such thing in OOTP.

P.S. My reference to the players' skill levels above is not my own opinion; I never saw any of those players play second base. It is based on what I have read over the years.

Not entirely true. A shortstop needs to do the same kind of thing when taking a throw from the second baseman from behind second base to start a potential double play. In other words, on those plays where we see a second baseman range behind second and flip it to the SS who then has to turn and fire to first, you would see such a skill used. I also believe there is skill in avoiding the sliding runner and still making a good throw to first which is something the shortstop would have to do often when turning double plays.

Originally Posted by phenom

I think it's kind of shortsighted to argue the semantics of "start" a double play or "turn" a double play. I think it's been established in this thread that middle infielders generally have higher DP ratings than corner guys, but I have a hard time accepting the idea that corner infielders don't need DP ratings simply because they don't pivot.

What is the skill difference between a third baseman firing to second for the third out or firing to second to start a potential double play?

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Not entirely true. A shortstop needs to do the same kind of thing when taking a throw from the second baseman from behind second base to start a potential double play. In other words, on those plays where we see a second baseman range behind second and flip it to the SS who then has to turn and fire to first, you would see such a skill used. I also believe there is skill in avoiding the sliding runner and still making a good throw to first which is something the shortstop would have to do often when turning double plays.

The second baseman would have to have ranged over to the shortstop side of the bag in order for the shortstop to have to pivot. I have never seen this occur. I have seen a second baseman range behind the bag and flip to a shortstop covering, but that usually takes so long that there never is any play at first and even if there was, that would still not be a full pivot.

As far as the Shortstop having to avoid the runner to make a throw, well, sure, but that is not a pivot. The pivot, if given a rating, should be unique to second baseman. Just as a stretch or scoop rating should be given to first baseman only, even though occasionally all fielders have to try to scoop up balls in the dirt.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

What is the skill difference between a third baseman firing to second for the third out or firing to second to start a potential double play?

The skills used are the same, but the difference is that to get the third out he can take a bit more time and be sure of his throw.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Questdog

The second baseman would have to have ranged over to the shortstop side of the bag in order for the shortstop to have to pivot. I have never seen this occur. I have seen a second baseman range behind the bag and flip to a shortstop covering, but that usually takes so long that there never is any play at first and even if there was, that would still not be a full pivot.

Watch any weekly "top ten" on ESPN and you will see instances of a SS taking a flip from a 2nd baseman while facing CF and needing to turn and avoid a sliding runner while making an accurate throw to first.

Example of what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mxEf205z90

Originally Posted by Questdog

As far as the Shortstop having to avoid the runner to make a throw, well, sure, but that is not a pivot. The pivot, if given a rating, should be unique to second baseman. Just as a stretch or scoop rating should be given to first baseman only, even though occasionally all fielders have to try to scoop up balls in the dirt.

In the context of having a "turn dp" rating one could certainly include the athletic ability of avoiding a runner trying to break up a double play at 2nd while making a strong, accurate throw to 1st to complete a double play.

Originally Posted by Questdog

The skills used are the same, but the difference is that to get the third out he can take a bit more time and be sure of his throw.

Not really true. If you watch force outs at 2nd from the third baseman with two outs they don't often beat the runner by much since the runner gets a better jump with two outs.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Watch any weekly "top ten" on ESPN and you will see instances of a SS taking a flip from a 2nd baseman while facing CF and needing to turn and avoid a sliding runner while making an accurate throw to first.

Example of what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mxEf205z90

What that is is an example of is a once in a lifetime play. You make it sound like that sort of thing happens all the time. That was a pivot by the shortstop, alright, but that is not something that is in the job description as a regular duty of the position.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Not really true. If you watch force outs at 2nd from the third baseman with two outs they don't often beat the runner by much since the runner gets a better jump with two outs.

They don't often beat the runner by much because the fielder takes the amount of time needed to get the runner without rushing it.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Questdog

What that is is an example of is a once in a lifetime play. You make it sound like that sort of thing happens all the time. That was a pivot by the shortstop, alright, but that is not something that is in the job description as a regular duty of the position.

OK then how about these more "pedestrian" examples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkBclTwFwVg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYdNgiI09dA

Originally Posted by Questdog

They don't often beat the runner by much because the fielder takes the amount of time needed to get the runner without rushing it.

Even if I concede your point, it doesn't change the fact that the skill set needed is the same.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Even if I concede your point, it doesn't change the fact that the skill set needed is the same.

Never said it wasn't......

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

OK then how about these more "pedestrian" examples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkBclTwFwVg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYdNgiI09dA
.

That's just shortstops doing what shortstops do; not what second baseman do. Two totally separate things and what a shortstop does on a normal 4-6-3 with his feet is not something that delineates shortstops from one another. It is simple enough that I have never heard of a shortstop that has trouble with it. No need for any rating and especially not one that equates it with what a second baseman does.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Questdog

That's just shortstops doing what shortstops do; not what second baseman do. Two totally separate things and what a shortstop does on a normal 4-6-3 with his feet is not something that delineates shortstops from one another. It is simple enough that I have never heard of a shortstop that has trouble with it. No need for any rating and especially not one that equates it with what a second baseman does.

I completely disagree. That ability is what keeps some guys playing third base instead of SS. It is an athletic skill that again could be incorporated into a "turn dp" rating. If you watch this video you will see that the SS actually pivots his hips much more than a 2nd baseman when turning a dp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvcNIPyAB78

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I completely disagree. That ability is what keeps some guys playing third base instead of SS. It is an athletic skill that again could be incorporated into a "turn dp" rating. If you watch this video you will see that the SS actually pivots his hips much more than a 2nd baseman when turning a dp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvcNIPyAB78

Time for me to go to bed. The only thing that keeps any third baseman from being a good shortstop is his lack of range.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

I personally think this is not a good way to do the position ratings - you can have someone with 250 in most of their ratings and 200 experience but if they are below the threshold in one area they will never have any rating in that position. It would make more sense to scale down (and drop down severely at the lower end, sure.)

Really? So should a MLB team consider playing a shortshop with a weak arm but good range and low errors? A second base with too little range? A CF with low range?

The ratings are a guideline to you. Like the OP showed the 3B looks good in his stats. Low errors nice range but what the stats don't show is the number of DPs lost because he is just a bit too slow in throwing the ball to turn the DP. So if you want to play a guy with no rating because only one of his ratings is below threshold do it. It won't mean he will make a bunch of errors or not get to balls beyond his range. However, it will mean he is a lacking a skill an average player at that position should have.

It is clear from the OP that the guy's stats are not bad at 3B you just don't see a rating. With a SS with a weak arm you might still get fielding and low errors but what you won't see in the stats are the "hits" caused because his arm is weak and he didn't have the zip to throw a runner out at first. Just like with this 3B you will see nice fielding stats but you won't see how many runs he cost from not being able to get the ball to 2B fast enough to turn the DP.
Real life managers notice this and the rating is your guideline if a player has no rating it means he is missing something to be a player a real life team would consider playing at that position, eg. not enough range for 2B, not enough arm for 3B or SS, too slow transition from glove to throw for the left of the infield, not enough range to play CF.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

Really? So should a MLB team consider playing a shortshop with a weak arm but good range and low errors? A second base with too little range? A CF with low range?

The ratings are a guideline to you. Like the OP showed the 3B looks good in his stats. Low errors nice range but what the stats don't show is the number of DPs lost because he is just a bit too slow in throwing the ball to turn the DP. So if you want to play a guy with no rating because only one of his ratings is below threshold do it. It won't mean he will make a bunch of errors or not get to balls beyond his range. However, it will mean he is a lacking a skill an average player at that position should have.

It is clear from the OP that the guy's stats are not bad at 3B you just don't see a rating. With a SS with a weak arm you might still get fielding and low errors but what you won't see in the stats are the "hits" caused because his arm is weak and he didn't have the zip to throw a runner out at first. Just like with this 3B you will see nice fielding stats but you won't see how many runs he cost from not being able to get the ball to 2B fast enough to turn the DP.
Real life managers notice this and the rating is your guideline if a player has no rating it means he is missing something to be a player a real life team would consider playing at that position, eg. not enough range for 2B, not enough arm for 3B or SS, too slow transition from glove to throw for the left of the infield, not enough range to play CF.

That's not the point. The point is that the game has a rating for it including all of the factors, it just chooses not to show them to you. Doesn't mean that player has to play there. Even if the rating is 20, its still a rating (although this player is probably in the 40's or 50's).

The argument is that the game should show you the rating because, essentially, your scout is refusing to give you a rating because of one rating that is too low. It shouldn't matter if the guy has concrete shoes and would lose a race to a bloated snail. He can still be rated and you can still ask someone to show you that rating.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

What is the skill difference between a third baseman firing to second for the third out or firing to second to start a potential double play?

The skill difference is largely glove to throwing time. How quickly the transition can be made and still make an accurate throw. The difference in the two plays is the 3B can take his time and make an accurate throw to 2B with 2 outs. Whereas a fraction of a second lost in transition for getting the ball to throwing can mean the difference between a double play or one out. A double play can be broken up with a fraction of a second delay. The idea of the rating is simply a manager would not play someone at 3B who is too slow react to make a double play. It has a much lower threshold because it is rarer for him to be in this situation than a SS but still important. It is as fundamental as why lefties don't play 3B in the bigs. In high school a quick reacting lefty might be better than an average right hand 3B but not in the bigs.

The game merely notes that for a 3B they have to do this sometimes and MLB managers won't start a guy at third whose transition from scooping the ball to throwing to second is too slow to make a double play. The threshold is much lower than SS because the play is rarer.

In rare cases a 1B or a P might be involved in a double play like on a bunt that goes wrong. They are so rare that the skill needed would not be a factor in deciding if someone plays that position.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by majesty95

That's not the point. The point is that the game has a rating for it including all of the factors, it just chooses not to show them to you. Doesn't mean that player has to play there. Even if the rating is 20, its still a rating (although this player is probably in the 40's or 50's).

The argument is that the game should show you the rating because, essentially, your scout is refusing to give you a rating because of one rating that is too low. It shouldn't matter if the guy has concrete shoes and would lose a race to a bloated snail. He can still be rated and you can still ask someone to show you that rating.

No the game does not have a rating for everyone at every position. Part of this is guideline to you and part of this is to help the AI who is much less smart than you. If a player can't perform a fundemental function of his position like turn DP he gets no rating.

All players only have can have a rating for 1B, RF, and LF. There is absolutely no rating for guys below thresholds for all other positions. There is no hidden rating.

Fielding position rating has 0 effect on the outcome of plays. It is just a guideline for you and the AI to help figure out who is good at a position. I am not sure exactly how experience comes into play but I am 90% sure the game does the following.

1. A ball is hit to the SS.
2. Range is checked to see if the SS gets to the ball.
3. Error is checked to see if the SS fields it cleanly.
4. Arm likely affects the probability of the SS making a throw from where he is to the base.
5. In a DP situation, the SS's and 2B's DP would determine the probability of making the second out.

No where is fielding rating used. Think of it like stars as opposed to contact rating. On each play the game uses error, range, arm, and sometimes turn DP to calculate if 1 to 3 outs occur on the play. I am 99% sure it never ever uses fielding rating for anything but as an aide to you and the AI to determine if you should put a player in that position.

If you want to play a guy with low DP rating at 3B go ahead he won't suck and might get nice fielding stats. Be aware you are not making double plays you should though and it is hurting your team. By not giving a rating, this how the game tells you he is a liability on the field in some common situations.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by majesty95

The argument is that the game should show you the rating because, essentially, your scout is refusing to give you a rating because of one rating that is too low.

It is not your scout doing this. Turn off scouting and you still will see no ratings for guys below turn DP threshold at 3B. This is the game telling you a player has a severe liability at a common function for his position. Position rating is solely an aid to help you pick which players are good at position. It is some calculation based on position and the different ratings the game uses to determine if plays are made.

If you are ok with a guy with no DP and great error, arm, and range playing 3B go ahead. There is no reason why the game should give him a rating there when he lacks a fundamental requirement to play the position. It is like saying an OL in football should get a rating even if he can't pass block or a soccer midfielder should get a midfielder rating even if he passes like a 10 year old.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by majesty95

So the question remains, how do you improve the DP rating? And should that rating prohibit an overall rating being generated?

Like other ratings it depends some what on your coaches but it is mostly random as far as I know. Since there is no fielding coach your bench coach's fielding rating helps development of fielding in the majors. In the minors it is the manager. All the fielding ratings are subject to the development model like everything else. If we exactly how to affect one rating power gamers would have a 25 man roster fully of 200/200 PH players.

Instead the process is somewhat random and affected by aging, work ethic, and the coaches you have. This is harder to see with fielding because there never has been a potential for fielding ratings shown. There may be hidden fielding ratings potentials but my experience has been fielding ratings only go up randomly. They don't change much as a player develops, I mean the ones that go into the position calculation (error, arm, range, turn DP) they only seem to decline with an aging player. The only fielding rating you can work on is position and that is just experience. I am pretty sure position rating has no effect on the game if it does it is small.

I can't remember ever seeing a significant improvement in IF/OF range, error, or arm or IF DP only declines as a player gets older. Hence you see guys like Beltre start with a 3B rating and lose it in the future as the game makes him decline as he is getting older.

[RchW]

To quote Bill James.

Rightward shifts along the defensive spectrum almost never work. (see note #2)

Note 2. The defensive spectrum looks like this:

[ - - 1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C - - ]
with the basic premise being that positions at the right end of
the spectrum are more difficult than the positions at the left
end of the spectrum. Players can generally move from right
to left along the specturm successfully during their careers.

This is a poor 1B/LF trying to become a 3B.

[mainstreet]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

No where is fielding rating used. Think of it like stars as opposed to contact rating. On each play the game uses error, range, arm, and sometimes turn DP to calculate if 1 to 3 outs occur on the play. I am 99% sure it never ever uses fielding rating for anything but as an aide to you and the AI to determine if you should put a player in that position.

If you want to play a guy with low DP rating at 3B go ahead he won't suck and might get nice fielding stats. Be aware you are not making double plays you should though and it is hurting your team. By not giving a rating, this how the game tells you he is a liability on the field in some common situations.

If this were true, then experience at a position wouldn't affect the rating at all. (Or, it would be a strange negative correlation -- a more experienced rating 50 would be the same as a less experienced rating 45?)

Unless experience is increasing the range/error/arm by that amount... but of course it isn't, otherwise all players would get a substantial 1B rating (to represent that which they already have) the instant they complete a game there, which obviously they don't.

Experience obviously impacts a player's ability to field his position, in addition to the other ratings.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

The skill difference is largely glove to throwing time. How quickly the transition can be made and still make an accurate throw. The difference in the two plays is the 3B can take his time and make an accurate throw to 2B with 2 outs. Whereas a fraction of a second lost in transition for getting the ball to throwing can mean the difference between a double play or one out. A double play can be broken up with a fraction of a second delay. The idea of the rating is simply a manager would not play someone at 3B who is too slow react to make a double play. It has a much lower threshold because it is rarer for him to be in this situation than a SS but still important. It is as fundamental as why lefties don't play 3B in the bigs. In high school a quick reacting lefty might be better than an average right hand 3B but not in the bigs.

The game merely notes that for a 3B they have to do this sometimes and MLB managers won't start a guy at third whose transition from scooping the ball to throwing to second is too slow to make a double play. The threshold is much lower than SS because the play is rarer.

In rare cases a 1B or a P might be involved in a double play like on a bunt that goes wrong. They are so rare that the skill needed would not be a factor in deciding if someone plays that position.

Yeah I just don't see it. I don't see a different skill set for getting the ball out of your glove quickly to throw to second than what is needed to get the ball out of your glove quickly to throw to first or home. I do see a different skill set for being able to make the pivot as a 2B or SS receiving the ball at 2nd and make the throw to first while avoiding a runner trying to take you out. I just don't believe that a "turn dp" rating should have any significance when playing 3B.