Smart, Hard Worker Won't Learn New Position

[cavebutter]

My no-glove prospect won't get any rating at all at 3b despite having played a full year at 3rd, and spending Spring Training starting every game there. As you can see, he's close to maxing out his experience there, but still no rating at all. He's Very High Intelligence and Work Ethic.

He's not committed any errors at 3rd. His fielding stats have been poor but not disgraceful. What needs to happen for this guy to at least get some kind of rating at 3rd?

[SirMichaelJordan]

He's not skilled enough to play 3rd.

Players need to have a certain amount of fielding skills along with experience to get ratings at a position. The less difficult the position is the less skills are needed and vice versa.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by cavebutter

My no-glove prospect won't get any rating at all at 3b despite having played a full year at 3rd, and spending Spring Training starting every game there. As you can see, he's close to maxing out his experience there, but still no rating at all. He's Very High Intelligence and Work Ethic.

He's not committed any errors at 3rd. His fielding stats have been poor but not disgraceful. What needs to happen for this guy to at least get some kind of rating at 3rd?

Turn double plays looks too low. There are minimum requirements on each fielding rating to get a rating at a position. There is a very old chart that may still be floating around that shows this.
Like in real life you can find a SS loses his rating but he may still have a 2B and 3B rating. A CF may lose CF rating rating entirely but still have a RF and/or LF rating.
Any player can get some rating at 1B or corner outfield IIRC.

[Biggio509]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...en&output=html

After all these years the chart is still available on the internet!

Pos cA cB iE iR iA iDP oE oR oA
P 1 1 1 1
C 1 1
1B 1 1 1 1
2B 50 40 10 60
3B 40 40 60 20
SS 50 70 60 60
LF 1 1 1
CF 40 90 40
RF 1 1 1

For some reason the chart isn't showing up right in the post. P and IFs starts with the I ratings. OF starts with the OF ratings.

So your 3B is not getting a rating because his DP is too low. While he is not making errors due to good IF errors he doesn't have the minimal ability to react quickly enough for a DP that the games wants to see to make him a 3B. This is based off the idea that fielding is a spectrum from hardest to easiest. SS, CF>2B> 3B > 1B,RF,LF.

So the difference between SS and 2B is arm and range while the difference between SS and 3B is DP, era, and range. Any player can get corner OF and 1B ratings. This has been debated for a long time in that ignores the special skills a 1B should have like stretching out to scoop a ball out of the dirt or that a corner outfielders arm is a factor. The arm for corner outfield is reflected in over all rating but there is no min.

I think has been tweaked some because I believe I have seen OFs with less than 90 range be CFs but I am not entirely sure. The basic concept is still there though. You need good all round ratings to play SS and CF. Arm and range become less important for 2B while 3B still needs some turn DP but much less range, error, and DP.

The player would make a plus fielding 1B but couldn't play 2B, 3B, or SS. He might get a one or two rating at C if you played him there enough but I wouldn't do it. Then again that is on the 250 scale so he might just be more average rating at 1B and 90 is less than I thought assume 100 scale.

Also the chart is not mine and I really don't remember who to give credit for it. I believe It has been around as long as I have been on the boards. I think it might have been BMW or a guy with a handle like that.

[RchW]

Range and arm maybe. DP is less important at 3B but DP is really low.

[Peregrine]

I personally think this is not a good way to do the position ratings - you can have someone with 250 in most of their ratings and 200 experience but if they are below the threshold in one area they will never have any rating in that position. It would make more sense to scale down (and drop down severely at the lower end, sure.)

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by RchW

Range and arm maybe. DP is less important at 3B but DP is really low.

It is because of turn DP. Modern day Adrian Beltre always loses his third base rating after a season or two because his turn dp rating drops below the threshold.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

I personally think this is not a good way to do the position ratings - you can have someone with 250 in most of their ratings and 200 experience but if they are below the threshold in one area they will never have any rating in that position. It would make more sense to scale down (and drop down severely at the lower end, sure.)

It's already too easy to have multi-position players in-game. I'm not invested in one particular way of doing defense but learning new positions is hard IRL and very few including the ubiquitous Ben Zobrist are league average at any but their primary one.

Consider the referenced player. I'm hard pressed to think of any poor 1B/LF defender who has ever transitioned to 3B IRL. Given that the module is working as expected. If this guy became a competent 3B we would be in arcade mode.

[Peregrine]

I'm not suggesting it for training a new position purposes, I get tired of seeing single position all-stars have no defensive rating because one of their skills is like 5 below the threshold.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Those type of guys should be naturally listed as 1B or even DH which the AI struggle to do.

In the past (haven't noticed it this year, but wasn't looking for it) you'll have second baseman gain weight, age and lose a lot of range. and they would lose their 2B rating but the game will still play them at the position. In that case, the AI should be playing them at lesser skilled positions like corner OF or 1B gaining experience there ultimately giving them a rating..

[The Wolf]

Having a very low defensive skill in one area is a standard way to end up at first base.

[endgame]

I thought this was a classified ad. I was going to apply.

Like all things in-game and RL, they don't always happen as we plan, let alone expect. All things take time, and sometimes they never happen at all. I tend to reconcile these occurrences as representative of our RL efforts and that's okay by me. Of course, as mentioned by others, there are always contributing drawbacks I may have overlooked.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

I'm not suggesting it for training a new position purposes, I get tired of seeing single position all-stars have no defensive rating because one of their skills is like 5 below the threshold.

I get it. That's off topic to the current subject of learning a position in opposition to the spectrum. Start a thread on the other topic and I may support your point if it is a problem in leagues other than current day roster sets. I don't see it in fictional leagues.

[Fyrestorm3]

Dude REALLY can't turn double plays. All he needs in a 20 in that rating, and he can't even get there.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Dude REALLY can't turn double plays. All he needs in a 20 in that rating, and he can't even get there.

To be fair, you almost never see third basemen turn double plays. They may start them but they hardly ever are the guy turning them. I don't really see the point to a minimum value needed for that position.

[mgoetze]

Adrian Beltre has turned 13 double plays in over 20,000 career innings at 3B. Pablo Sandoval has turned 4 double plays in about 6,600 innings. Alex Rodriguez was once a SS, it is surely not for lack of skill that he has turned only 6 double plays in over 10,000 innings at 3B.

Who cares whether OOTP is giving him a rating at the position, just play him there. If it costs you an out every other year because he couldn't turn a double play, who will notice?

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

To be fair, you almost never see third basemen turn double plays. They may start them but they hardly ever are the guy turning them. I don't really see the point to a minimum value needed for that position.

Outside of ground balls to third with runners on 1st/2nd and a few rare infield shift situations. And shifting with a guy on first is a huge risk.

[mgoetze]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Outside of ground balls to third with runners on 1st/2nd and a few rare infield shift situations. And shifting with a guy on first is a huge risk.

I dunno about huge risk, unless it's Mookie Betts on first.

Anyway, if you watch the Red Sox this season, when they shift with noone on they have Pedroia in shallow right and Sandoval near the bag. When they shift with a man on first, they have Sandoval in shallow right and Pedroia near the bag.

[Questdog]

1) Just because the guy does not have a rating shown does not mean he cannot play 3B and do a credible job. I am not sure what the point of disallowing a rating to show for players under certain rating thresholds, but it seems to have no effect.

2) DP ratings in OOTP are for starting DP's, not for pivoting,

[Lou Gehrig]

Originally Posted by mgoetze

Who cares whether OOTP is giving him a rating at the position, just play him there. If it costs you an out every other year because he couldn't turn a double play, who will notice?

Agree. Give the player a chance to perform at that position with weekly evaluations.