Ping: Markus or OOTP1 or Some Other OOTP3 Expert - Page 2

Draft Dodger · 04-04-2002, 06:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Subby:
I have gleaned the following from OOTP1 and Markus' answers (please correct me if I am wrong): When we turn coaches and scouts off, it doesnt matter, because not all average coaches and scouts are the same.

Am I close?

<hr></blockquote>

what I get:

-when you set all coaches to averages, coaches will be similar but not identical. (kind of like the coaching equivelant of the Baldwin brothers - hard to tell them apart, but there are subtle differences).

-when you turn coaches to off, all ratings of coaches should be the same, and a player's ratings shouldn't change when they change teams.
I am suspicious there might be something flaky somewhere in the coding that makes this not work 100% correctly; hence, your strange anectodal evidence (whatever the hell that means).

TRO · 04-04-2002, 07:24 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Draft Dodger:


-when you turn coaches to off, all ratings of coaches should be the same, and a player's ratings shouldn't change when they change teams.
<hr></blockquote>

A point of clarification here:

We're not seeing ratings change as soon as a player is traded, ie through a different scout. We are seeing that players don't develop as well or receive more negatives on certain teams than others. Thus, when a player is traded to a team and through the next few months starts seeing talent/ratings increases due to the potentially better invisible coach.

We are only in the 4th season, so things could certainly change with time, but there have been patterns with some teams as being better developers and some being total ratings killers. For a while, I thought it was tied to winning, better teams didn't see as many increases and had more decreases. But as one of the worst teams in the league has been seeing some bad talent drops in some good young players, I don't buy that much either.

I know that part of the game is to figure things out on our own, but this question really goes to the fair balance of the league.

Draft Dodger · 04-04-2002, 07:39 PM

[quote]Originally posted by TRO:

We're not seeing ratings change as soon as a player is traded, ie through a different scout. We are seeing that players don't develop as well or receive more negatives on certain teams than others. Thus, when a player is traded to a team and through the next few months starts seeing talent/ratings increases due to the potentially better invisible coach.<hr></blockquote>

ok, this makes a little more sense.
it's got to be probable that the different teams are using their players differently, and that could have a real effect on development.

For example, I have a 2b (Fritz Stubby) developing well in AA. I trade him to you. You put him in AAA, or maybe A or maybe you leave him at AA as well, where he competes for playing time with another player. No matter what, it's MORE likely that you will not develop Fritz in the exact same manner that I did. Hence, his development path will change, almost always, when a player changes teams.

Can we feasibly chalk this up to just different human owners having different skill levels when it comes to player development?

Hammer755 · 04-05-2002, 08:15 AM

I've definitely been keeping an eye on this thread, as it is VERY important to all of us that are involved in online leagues with coaches/scouts turned off. I think that the 'average - meaning scouts disabled' scout works. I believe this because players always have the same ratings in my leagues, regardless of which team they play for - before & after trades, when signed from free agency - their ratings are consistently the same.

Because of this, I keep coming to the same question. If the scouts work correctly when coaches/scouts are disabled, why would the coaches not? Now, I'm not saying that it's not possible, I just think that if one facet of the program works correctly, why would another that is directly associated with it not work?

andy m · 04-05-2002, 08:46 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Hammer755:
I just think that if one facet of the program works correctly, why would another that is directly associated with it not work?<hr></blockquote>

because this is OOTP. in 1000 years time, software-archaeologists will dig up the source code for the game, and puzzle for many eons as to what exactly they have in front of them.

"bob, it appears to be some sort of calculator!"

Subby · 04-05-2002, 11:57 AM

I think I have come to the conclusion that turning scouts off works. We are really more interested in development here anyway.

So, the only real question now is this:

"Are the average coaches that EVERY team gets when coaches/scouts are turned off equal in their ratings, or is their still some variation?"

Hopefully we have distilled the question down enough to get a yes or no answer with a little explanation thrown in...

Thanks, fellas!

Daimyo · 04-05-2002, 02:46 PM

bump

Daimyo · 04-06-2002, 04:39 PM

bump

Steve Kuffrey · 04-06-2002, 04:57 PM

There is still "some" variation, though it is minimal. However, I cannot give you a percentage as such.

Subby · 04-06-2002, 08:33 PM

Thank you.

Might I respectfully request that this be fixed in version 5? If coaches are turned off, I would expect there to be absolutely NO variation among each team's 'phantom' coach, no matter how small said variation might be (or how large, since we don't know the percentages).

Thanks again.

Fritz · 04-07-2002, 04:06 AM

Does this variation change at all over time?

Daimyo · 04-07-2002, 10:35 AM

[quote]Originally posted by OOTP1:
There is still "some" variation, though it is minimal. However, I cannot give you a percentage as such.<hr></blockquote>

Is the variation equal to what you would get by turning on coaches and setting them all to average? If so, do the abilities of these "phantom coaches" change over time?

When are "phantom coaches" assigned to teams? Does it occur when the scouts/coaches switch is toggled to off? ie, could you toggle the switch on/off every month or so to randomly re-assign the coaches (to avoid one team getting stuck with poorer coaches indefinitely)?

Does each minor league level within a team get a different average "phantom coach" or is there only one "phantom coach" per team?

Subby · 04-07-2002, 12:20 PM

Do OOTP3 and OOTP4 treat this issue in exactly the same way?

If so, the other thing I was thinking about was this - would it be possible to patch OOTP4 so that all the phantom coaches had the exact same ratings?

Just something that might be worth considering...

Henry · 04-07-2002, 12:24 PM

Not sure a "fix" is what you(we) want... the problem here is that Markus has designed the game so that the "true" ratings (the ones the game REALLY uses are "never" shown to you. Even in a "coaches off" situation, you really never see the "real stuff". This is what creates the "fog of war" so-to-speak, and what really sets this game apart from all others....

Steve Kuffrey · 04-07-2002, 12:40 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Henry:
Not sure a "fix" is what you(we) want... the problem here is that Markus has designed the game so that the "true" ratings (the ones the game REALLY uses are "never" shown to you. Even in a "coaches off" situation, you really never see the "real stuff". This is what creates the "fog of war" so-to-speak, and what really sets this game apart from all others....<hr></blockquote>

Exactly, we are NOT going to make the game so that true and exact ratings are seen. I'm not sure why this is a problem....I play in 4 different online leagues and see this as an additional challenge.

Hammer755 · 04-07-2002, 01:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by OOTP1:
Exactly, we are NOT going to make the game so that true and exact ratings are seen. I'm not sure why this is a problem....I play in 4 different online leagues and see this as an additional challenge.<hr></blockquote>

Steve, I think everyone may be talking about 2 different things. It appears that everyone is in agreement that the 'Average' Scout that is used when Scouts/Coaches are disabled works correctly, meaning that even though we may never see the 'true' rating of the player, everyone sees identical ratings. Therefore, no team is inherently favored over any other.

However, if 'Average' Coaches are different with Coaches disabled, one team may have an advantage in player development if their 'Average' Coaches are slightly better than another team's 'Average' Coaches. I don't see this as wanting to see the 'true' ratings of the players, it's just ensuring that all teams are on a level playing field in regards to player development.

Somebody please correct me if I've managed to misrepresent the arguments.

Subby · 04-07-2002, 05:09 PM

Are you guys reading my posts?

I am not talking about scouts, I am talking about coaches.

Coaches are still in effect, even when turned off. If that is the way the game is designed then fine, except the "phantom" coaches (according to OOTP1) all have different ratings. What good does turning coaches off do if each team is still affected by a "phantom" coach with a different rating than the "phantom" coach on another team?

Since coaches have a DIRECT effect on development, this seems like it would be a big problem for on-line leagues that turn coaches off.

So yes, it needs to be fixed, please.

alhill · 04-07-2002, 05:18 PM

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SCOUTS. WE DON'T WANT TO SEE ANYBODY'S TRUE RATINGS!

We don't care how accurate the scouts are as long as they are equal for everyone.

The problem is that coaches affect development.

On-line league turn coaches off so that all teams will have equal opportunity for development.

We have been told that even when you turn coaches off the coaches are not equal.

You have not answered the question of what happens to these coaches over time. Do they age? Does the computer change these coaches when their non-existent contract runs off? Are these coaches created or does the computer select the average coach from the pool of free agent coaches?

Is it possible to patch the game so that if coaches are off, every team has a coach that is exactly equal to the other teams' coaches?

Killebrew · 04-07-2002, 05:21 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Hammer755:


Somebody please correct me if I've managed to misrepresent the arguments.<hr></blockquote>

I think you hit the nail right on the head there, that's how I see the various arguments as well, and I suspect many online league reps are studying this thread carefully.

Fritz · 04-07-2002, 05:25 PM

[quote]Originally posted by alhill:

Is it possible to patch the game so that if coaches are off, every team has a coach that is exactly equal to the other teams' coaches?<hr></blockquote>

A utility that would "zero" all the coaches would be fine. something that would make them all the same age/real rating.

I would think .400 would have the manpower/knowhow to make this utility.

04-04-2002, 06:05 PM	#21
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	[quote]Originally posted by Subby: <strong>I have gleaned the following from OOTP1 and Markus' answers (please correct me if I am wrong): When we turn coaches and scouts off, it doesnt matter, because not all average coaches and scouts are the same. Am I close? </strong><hr></blockquote> what I get: -when you set all coaches to averages, coaches will be similar but not identical. (kind of like the coaching equivelant of the Baldwin brothers - hard to tell them apart, but there are subtle differences). -when you turn coaches to off, all ratings of coaches should be the same, and a player's ratings shouldn't change when they change teams. I am suspicious there might be something flaky somewhere in the coding that makes this not work 100% correctly; hence, your strange anectodal evidence (whatever the hell that means). __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

04-04-2002, 07:24 PM	#22
TRO Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 84	[quote]Originally posted by Draft Dodger: <strong> -when you turn coaches to off, all ratings of coaches should be the same, and a player's ratings shouldn't change when they change teams. </strong><hr></blockquote> A point of clarification here: We're not seeing ratings change as soon as a player is traded, ie through a different scout. We are seeing that players don't develop as well or receive more negatives on certain teams than others. Thus, when a player is traded to a team and through the next few months starts seeing talent/ratings increases due to the potentially better invisible coach. We are only in the 4th season, so things could certainly change with time, but there have been patterns with some teams as being better developers and some being total ratings killers. For a while, I thought it was tied to winning, better teams didn't see as many increases and had more decreases. But as one of the worst teams in the league has been seeing some bad talent drops in some good young players, I don't buy that much either. I know that part of the game is to figure things out on our own, but this question really goes to the fair balance of the league. __________________ FOBL Montana Monarchs

04-04-2002, 07:39 PM	#23
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	[quote]Originally posted by TRO: <strong> We're not seeing ratings change as soon as a player is traded, ie through a different scout. We are seeing that players don't develop as well or receive more negatives on certain teams than others. Thus, when a player is traded to a team and through the next few months starts seeing talent/ratings increases due to the potentially better invisible coach.</strong><hr></blockquote> ok, this makes a little more sense. it's got to be probable that the different teams are using their players differently, and that could have a real effect on development. For example, I have a 2b (Fritz Stubby) developing well in AA. I trade him to you. You put him in AAA, or maybe A or maybe you leave him at AA as well, where he competes for playing time with another player. No matter what, it's MORE likely that you will not develop Fritz in the exact same manner that I did. Hence, his development path will change, almost always, when a player changes teams. Can we feasibly chalk this up to just different human owners having different skill levels when it comes to player development? __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

04-05-2002, 08:46 AM	#25
andy m Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 183	[quote]Originally posted by Hammer755: <strong>I just think that if one facet of the program works correctly, why would another that is directly associated with it not work?</strong><hr></blockquote> because this is OOTP. in 1000 years time, software-archaeologists will dig up the source code for the game, and puzzle for many eons as to what exactly they have in front of them. "bob, it appears to be some sort of calculator!" __________________

04-06-2002, 04:57 PM	#29
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	There is still "some" variation, though it is minimal. However, I cannot give you a percentage as such. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

04-05-2002, 08:15 AM	#24
Hammer755 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,348	I've definitely been keeping an eye on this thread, as it is VERY important to all of us that are involved in online leagues with coaches/scouts turned off. I think that the 'average - meaning scouts disabled' scout works. I believe this because players always have the same ratings in my leagues, regardless of which team they play for - before & after trades, when signed from free agency - their ratings are consistently the same. Because of this, I keep coming to the same question. If the scouts work correctly when coaches/scouts are disabled, why would the coaches not? Now, I'm not saying that it's not possible, I just think that if one facet of the program works correctly, why would another that is directly associated with it not work?

04-05-2002, 11:57 AM	#26
Subby Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 375	I think I have come to the conclusion that turning scouts off works. We are really more interested in development here anyway. So, the only real question now is this: "Are the average coaches that EVERY team gets when coaches/scouts are turned off equal in their ratings, or is their still some variation?" Hopefully we have distilled the question down enough to get a yes or no answer with a little explanation thrown in... Thanks, fellas!

04-05-2002, 02:46 PM	#27
Daimyo Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Evanston, IL Posts: 15	bump

04-06-2002, 04:39 PM	#28
Daimyo Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Evanston, IL Posts: 15	bump

04-06-2002, 08:33 PM	#30
Subby Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 375	Thank you. Might I respectfully request that this be fixed in version 5? If coaches are turned off, I would expect there to be absolutely NO variation among each team's 'phantom' coach, no matter how small said variation might be (or how large, since we don't know the percentages). Thanks again.

04-07-2002, 04:06 AM	#31
Fritz Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 81	Does this variation change at all over time?

04-07-2002, 10:35 AM	#32
Daimyo Bat Boy Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Evanston, IL Posts: 15	[quote]Originally posted by OOTP1: <strong>There is still "some" variation, though it is minimal. However, I cannot give you a percentage as such.</strong><hr></blockquote> Is the variation equal to what you would get by turning on coaches and setting them all to average? If so, do the abilities of these "phantom coaches" change over time? When are "phantom coaches" assigned to teams? Does it occur when the scouts/coaches switch is toggled to off? ie, could you toggle the switch on/off every month or so to randomly re-assign the coaches (to avoid one team getting stuck with poorer coaches indefinitely)? Does each minor league level within a team get a different average "phantom coach" or is there only one "phantom coach" per team?

04-07-2002, 12:20 PM	#33
Subby Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 375	Do OOTP3 and OOTP4 treat this issue in exactly the same way? If so, the other thing I was thinking about was this - would it be possible to patch OOTP4 so that all the phantom coaches had the exact same ratings? Just something that might be worth considering...

04-07-2002, 12:24 PM	#34
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	Not sure a "fix" is what you(we) want... the problem here is that Markus has designed the game so that the "true" ratings (the ones the game REALLY uses are "never" shown to you. Even in a "coaches off" situation, you really never see the "real stuff". This is what creates the "fog of war" so-to-speak, and what really sets this game apart from all others....

04-07-2002, 12:40 PM	#35
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	[quote]Originally posted by Henry: <strong>Not sure a "fix" is what you(we) want... the problem here is that Markus has designed the game so that the "true" ratings (the ones the game REALLY uses are "never" shown to you. Even in a "coaches off" situation, you really never see the "real stuff". This is what creates the "fog of war" so-to-speak, and what really sets this game apart from all others....</strong><hr></blockquote> Exactly, we are NOT going to make the game so that true and exact ratings are seen. I'm not sure why this is a problem....I play in 4 different online leagues and see this as an additional challenge. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

04-07-2002, 01:05 PM	#36
Hammer755 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,348	[quote]Originally posted by OOTP1: <strong>Exactly, we are NOT going to make the game so that true and exact ratings are seen. I'm not sure why this is a problem....I play in 4 different online leagues and see this as an additional challenge.</strong><hr></blockquote> Steve, I think everyone may be talking about 2 different things. It appears that everyone is in agreement that the 'Average' Scout that is used when Scouts/Coaches are disabled works correctly, meaning that even though we may never see the 'true' rating of the player, everyone sees identical ratings. Therefore, no team is inherently favored over any other. However, if 'Average' Coaches are different with Coaches disabled, one team may have an advantage in player development if their 'Average' Coaches are slightly better than another team's 'Average' Coaches. I don't see this as wanting to see the 'true' ratings of the players, it's just ensuring that all teams are on a level playing field in regards to player development. Somebody please correct me if I've managed to misrepresent the arguments.

04-07-2002, 05:09 PM	#37
Subby Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 375	Are you guys reading my posts? I am not talking about scouts, I am talking about coaches. Coaches are still in effect, even when turned off. If that is the way the game is designed then fine, except the "phantom" coaches (according to OOTP1) all have different ratings. What good does turning coaches off do if each team is still affected by a "phantom" coach with a different rating than the "phantom" coach on another team? Since coaches have a DIRECT effect on development, this seems like it would be a big problem for on-line leagues that turn coaches off. So yes, it needs to be fixed, please.

04-07-2002, 05:18 PM	#38
alhill Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 79	THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SCOUTS. WE DON'T WANT TO SEE ANYBODY'S TRUE RATINGS! We don't care how accurate the scouts are as long as they are equal for everyone. The problem is that coaches affect development. On-line league turn coaches off so that all teams will have equal opportunity for development. We have been told that even when you turn coaches off the coaches are not equal. You have not answered the question of what happens to these coaches over time. Do they age? Does the computer change these coaches when their non-existent contract runs off? Are these coaches created or does the computer select the average coach from the pool of free agent coaches? Is it possible to patch the game so that if coaches are off, every team has a coach that is exactly equal to the other teams' coaches?

04-07-2002, 05:21 PM	#39
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	[quote]Originally posted by Hammer755: <strong> Somebody please correct me if I've managed to misrepresent the arguments.</strong><hr></blockquote> I think you hit the nail right on the head there, that's how I see the various arguments as well, and I suspect many online league reps are studying this thread carefully. __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

04-07-2002, 05:25 PM	#40
Fritz Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 81	[quote]Originally posted by alhill: <strong> Is it possible to patch the game so that if coaches are off, every team has a coach that is exactly equal to the other teams' coaches?</strong><hr></blockquote> A utility that would "zero" all the coaches would be fine. something that would make them all the same age/real rating. I would think .400 would have the manpower/knowhow to make this utility.