Which independent/international leagues are included in 16?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Bigrod

Handled it exactly as it's set in our beta test version.

A little info for the folks no so lucky as to have that access might be appreciated.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by frangipard

No Bundesliga? I applaud Markus' resistance to the call of provinciality.

OTOH, I'll have to create it.

Originally Posted by Assos

Some assistance to our moders!

Baseball-Bundesliga

I'm about halfway through creating it.

Wanted to add it officially but there were some potential legal concerns. Might revisit it in the future.

So it'll be pretty well semi-official. Same rating scale and everything as the rest of the roster set, of course

Working on the French league as well. Neither will be done by release, but I'll try to get them out not too, too long after.

Though I may be a bit burned out by release, so we'll see how it goes...

[shawa666]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

What did you do with the Can-Am League given it has its road team playing only 61 games and the special Shikoku All-Star team playing only 17 while the other six teams in the league play 97?


Depends on what you mean by "historical". Independent leagues go way back.

The road team/japanese tour isn't a problem. only needs to use the real schedule.

The problem is the interlock with the AA.

[westendcards]

I am excited about the added foreign and independent leagues. I have been downloading player photos (Getting ready ) and for some of these leagues find it hard to find out good information about team rosters and schedules. Will all of these leagues have real schedules included and full player stats for these new leagues?

Thanks

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by westendcards

I am excited about the added foreign and independent leagues. I have been downloading player photos (Getting ready ) and for some of these leagues find it hard to find out good information about team rosters and schedules. Will all of these leagues have real schedules included and full player stats for these new leagues?

Thanks

Real schedules, yes.

Full 2014 stats, though there are some indy guys who played in 2014 but aren't on current rosters who haven't been added to the db yet. Lots of these in the Pecos League f.e.

Career indy stats also haven't been added yet. Have a ways back for the Atlantic, but the other league's career stats will be a wip that'll fill out over time.

[Bigrod]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

A little info for the folks no so lucky as to have that access might be appreciated.

In response to the Can-Am lg.
It's combined with the American Association so that we could have the interleague play.
I did not include the foriegn exibition games or the Road Team you mentioned only the Interleague.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Bigrod

In response to the Can-Am lg.
It's combined with the American Association so that we could have the interleague play.
I did not include the foriegn exibition games or the Road Team you mentioned only the Interleague.

The games against the Shikoku All-Star team are not "exhibitions". They count in the regular season standings, for both the six regular Can-Am clubs and the Shikoku team.

Furthermore, simply removing the games against the Garden State Grays and Shikoku All-Star team results in Can-Am teams not all playing the same number of games. If you just eliminate the games the six Can-Am teams end up with the following number of scheduled games: New Jersey, 84; Ottawa, 86; Quebec, 83; Rockland, 85; Sussex, 84; Trois-Rivieres, 82. All the American Association teams will have 100 games played.

That is hardly an appropriate recreation of the league.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The games against the Shikoku All-Star team are not "exhibitions". They count in the regular season standings, for both the six regular Can-Am clubs and the Shikoku team.

Furthermore, simply removing the games against the Garden State Grays and Shikoku All-Star team results in Can-Am teams not all playing the same number of games. If you just eliminate the games the six Can-Am teams end up with the following number of scheduled games: New Jersey, 84; Ottawa, 86; Quebec, 83; Rockland, 85; Sussex, 84; Trois-Rivieres, 82. All the American Association teams will have 100 games played.

That is hardly an appropriate recreation of the league.

How would you suggest scheduling regular season games against an All-Star team from an entirely different league? It's not doable in OOTP right now. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about that.

It would've been good to add the Grays. Not really sure why we didn't. I'd imagine it can be done at some point.

EDIT: Actually I guess we didn't add them since the Can-Am doesn't really consider them to be a member team. There's no place in the OOTP structure to put them, really. They'd have to have their own one-team sub-league.

[Bigrod]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The games against the Shikoku All-Star team are not "exhibitions". They count in the regular season standings, for both the six regular Can-Am clubs and the Shikoku team.

Furthermore, simply removing the games against the Garden State Grays and Shikoku All-Star team results in Can-Am teams not all playing the same number of games. If you just eliminate the games the six Can-Am teams end up with the following number of scheduled games: New Jersey, 84; Ottawa, 86; Quebec, 83; Rockland, 85; Sussex, 84; Trois-Rivieres, 82. All the American Association teams will have 100 games played.

That is hardly an appropriate recreation of the league.

They are exibitions as far as I'm concerned...I'm the boss on schedules so I can call them whatever I want.
Until ootp allows the team id to be used for schedules so it can handle those out of league games...one has to simply live with it..I've been asking for this for 5 yrs. now..

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

How would you suggest scheduling regular season games against an All-Star team from an entirely different league? It's not doable in OOTP right now. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about that.

Personally, I'd say if fundamental operating parameters of the league(s) cannot be reproduced properly then don't include them for the moment. There is hardly any pressing reason that all the independent leagues had to be included this year. Given the compromises necessary to include the leagues the result is sufficiently close to fictional that they are no longer realistic representations of the real thing. And if they're basically fictionalized, then they can be disregarded for the time being. The Atlantic and Frontier were included while the AA and Can-Am were skipped.


As to interleague play, that could have been handled by some improvements to the schedule file structure for associations. By adding a few extra fields regular season interleague play in associations could be done. But you may recall a discussion about associations in which numerous folks basically dumped on and disregarded the feature. Well, it turns out the real-life AA/Can-Am situation would have been well-suited to improvements to that feature. (And really that's been the case for since 2012, when the AA and Can-Am League first began regular season interleague play but without post-season competition.)

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Actually I guess we didn't add them since the Can-Am doesn't really consider them to be a member team. There's no place in the OOTP structure to put them, really. They'd have to have their own one-team sub-league.

They may not be a 'real' member in terms of long-term membership, but in terms of their games counting in the standings for both the club itself and the other clubs it plays, it is a real member club.

That the Grays and Shikoku teams are ineligible for the playoffs could be handled by improvements to the playoff customization options. I've largely worked out a comprehensive system for overhauling that feature, but again, there was little interest was shown in pursuing it. The overwhelming view seemed to be of continuing the status quo for both associations and playoff customization.

[Bigrod]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

EDIT: Actually I guess we didn't add them since the Can-Am doesn't really consider them to be a member team. There's no place in the OOTP structure to put them, really. They'd have to have their own one-team sub-league.

Actually we should add them as Can-Am has updated their site and schedule..Garden State Grays are considered the Road Team, but only play 19 games.
CanAmLeague.com - Official Website of the Canadian American Association of Professional Baseball

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Bigrod

Actually we should add them as Can-Am has updated their site and schedule..Garden State Grays are considered the Road Team, but only play 19 games.
CanAmLeague.com - Official Website of the Canadian American Association of Professional Baseball

Correction: that's not 19 games, that's 19 series. Note the date range for each entry (e.g. Jun 29-July 2 at New Jersey; that's four days, with a total of five games being played as a doubleheader is scheduled for June 30th).

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Personally, I'd say if fundamental operating parameters of the league(s) cannot be reproduced properly then don't include them for the moment. There is hardly any pressing reason that all the independent leagues had to be included this year. Given the compromises necessary to include the leagues the result is sufficiently close to fictional that they are no longer realistic representations of the real thing. And if they're basically fictionalized, then they can be disregarded for the time being. The Atlantic and Frontier were included while the AA and Can-Am were skipped.

We've had discussion before and we're just not going to agree. I'd rather have them now and get them perfect later than never to include them, ever, because we want them to be perfect first.

As I've said before, should we not include historical since it's still not perfect? How about MLB in OOTP 3 or so? Should Markus never have added it until it was perfect?

The idea that something shouldn't added or created because it can't instantly be made perfect is simply self-defeating.

If we followed it, nothing new would ever get created and no improvements would ever be made, since it's generally impossible to get things perfect instantly upon creation.

[simboy]

Kind of a Can Am league fan myself, living across the street from Newark Bear Stadium (team folded last year).

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

We've had discussion before and we're just not going to agree. I'd rather have them now and get them perfect later than never to include them, ever, because we want them to be perfect first.

Getting basic league details right is not an issue of perfection, it is an issue of getting basic league details right. That proper interleague play, proper inclusion of partial season teams, proper playoff formats, and so forth are seen as items of "perfection" is the root of the problem. They are not items of perfection, they are the basic, most fundamental aspects of a league's operations. Realism has to start at the base, and such basic league details are the foundation from which things grow.

Would folks accept club rosters with multiple players missing, players with the wrong name, players on the wrong club, or players with incorrect stats? No, they would not. They would ask why these basic, fundamental details are wrong. So why are basic, fundamental league details treated in this cavalier manner? There is a seeming widespread acceptance of errors in the most basic, fundamental details of a league. (This same issue applies equally to the handling of 19th century major leagues.)

Originally Posted by lukasberger

As I've said before, should we not include historical since it's still not perfect? How about MLB in OOTP 3 or so? Should Markus never have added it until it was perfect?

I'll repeat myself to make the point absolutely clear because this idea that it's about "perfection" is completely backwards.

Getting basic, core aspects of league-level details correct is not about getting it perfect, it is about getting basic, core details correct.

We don't accept other areas getting basic, core details wrong. Why is this the case when it comes to the fundamental aspects of a league? Honestly, if the most basic, fundamental aspects of a league's operation in a season are not considered important enough to accurately recreate, then let's continue that logic to other fundamental aspects. Hey, why bother getting the basic rules of baseball right? Let's have four outs per inning and games that are only eight innings long. I mean, who cares if the most basic, fundamental aspects of the sport are wrong? It's close enough, right?

Wait, it's not? Getting the basic details right is viewed as an important thing? Okay, great. Now explain to me getting why the basic details of how a league organizes and runs its season correct isn't of equal importance.

IT IS NOT ABOUT PERFECTION. IT IS ABOUT GETTING BASIC DETAILS RIGHT. And which clubs are members of a league, when they play their games, and how they conduct their post-seasons are such basic details.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Bigrod

Until ootp allows the team id to be used for schedules so it can handle those out of league games...one has to simply live with it..I've been asking for this for 5 yrs. now..

They are not "out of league" games. The club is made up of players from the Shikoku Island League, but it otherwise is a (limited) member of the Can-Am League, Its games count in the Can-Am League standings for both itself and its opponents. Also, when the Shikoku All-Star team is playing in North America the Shikoku Island League is suspending its season.

A real-world analogy here is to the Soviet and Czechoslovakian All-Star teams which played regular season games in the WHA during the 1977-78 season. Those games counted in the standings for both All-Star teams and the WHA opponents they played.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Would folks accept club rosters with multiple players missing, players with the wrong name, players on the wrong club, or players with incorrect stats? No, they would not. They would ask why these basic, fundamental details are wrong. So why are basic, fundamental league details treated in this cavalier manner? There is a seeming widespread acceptance of errors in the most basic, fundamental details of a league. (This same issue applies equally to the handling of 19th century major leagues.)

They certainly would. They did for years!

That's how the rosters shipped for years, from 2006-2011ish. Plenty of missing players, missing stats, no MiLB stats were in the rosters for years. A lot of A- players and below had totally generic ratings.

They were far, far less complete than the leagues you're discussing are now. In fact no offense intended to some of the folks who worked on them in the early years, but they were totally ridiculous for a couple years.

They drove me crazy, but I still bought the game every year.

It took time, it took effort, it took getting the right team together and a lot of patience to get the rosters to their polished state of perfection. It didn't happen overnight, as soon as real rosters were added to the game. It took nearly a half decade to get the rosters to be as perfect as they are now.

Do you really not know this, as involved in the beta process as you've been for years? The shortcomings of the rosters were one of the most common discussions on the boards here for years.

I feel like you're deliberately overstating your case to make an argument, or else just yanking my chain here.

You've been behind the scenes as long as anyone. You've seen how the game has gradually evolved and gotten better and better over the years.

That's been the case for nearly every aspect of the game. Why is it that you would expect the new leagues to be any different?

[Lukas Berger]

Beyond that, it's very much worth mentioning that the specific details you're discussing were only revealed by the Can-Am in mid-January. Long after we'd created the leagues and decided to add them to the game. Even after beta started, or just barely before.

Maybe we could've done a better job of getting Markus to adjust stuff, but there was no time to deal with it. It happened last minute.

There was no decision to ignore that stuff, it just popped and caught everyone by surprise. You're acting like it's been an established fact for years, that we should've known about and planned to deal with. No one knew about it until it was essentially too late to adjust for this year.

[megamanmatt]

LGO if you don't like how the league is setup don't use it. There is absolutely no reason and no call to threadjack a topic to push your own personal agenda. There may be some people who want to use it as is and to deny it simply because the great and powerful LGO doesn't think it's handled the proper way(ie. perfectly) is fairly asinine. That however is just my .02 for what it's worth. As we all know I'm a bit of a jerk known to speak without thinking first.

[frangipard]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That proper interleague play, proper inclusion of partial season teams, proper playoff formats, and so forth are seen as items of "perfection" is the root of the problem. They are not items of perfection, they are the basic, most fundamental aspects of a league's operations. Realism has to start at the base, and such basic league details are the foundation from which things grow.

... Hey, why bother getting the basic rules of baseball right? Let's have four outs per inning and games that are only eight innings long. I mean, who cares if the most basic, fundamental aspects of the sport are wrong? It's close enough, right?

Am I the only one that read this and literally laughed out loud? I mean, to the point of someone else hearing me and asking what was so funny?

Dude, nothing about the Shinkoku Island League is "core and fundamental" to anything. I'd bet the leagues themselves would say it's awesome that they can even have the team names/logo in there, let alone the roster, let alone the ballpark measurements, let alone anything remotely approximating their schedule.

Take a breath and dial it back. I'm reading "That is hardly an appropriate recreation of the league" and I'm hearing it in the voice of an angry Niles Crane.