The superstats of today

Plutoro · 07-23-2003, 12:24 AM

Why do people put so much stock in them? All of them have flaws and most (NOT ALL) are developed by likeminded individuals and the current ones will die off in a few years.

If if was that easy to determine the best/worst players then being a GM would pay nothing and anyone can do it.

This board is one of the better ones for people throwing the super stats at me (RC...winshares..VOPR) whenever I debate a players value and such and I really dont know lot about them.

But why are they so valued and taken so strongly, I mean why is the Winshare the choice stat when decideing the best players in the league by the "statheads"

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro
Why do people put so much stock in them? All of them have flaws and most (NOT ALL) are developed by likeminded individuals and the current ones will die off in a few years.

If if was that easy to determine the best/worst players then being a GM would pay nothing and anyone can do it.

This board is one of the better ones for people throwing the super stats at me (RC...winshares..VOPR) whenever I debate a players value and such and I really dont know lot about them.

But why are they so valued and taken so strongly, I mean why is the Winshare the choice stat when decideing the best players in the league by the "statheads"

Because it takes all those other stats into consideration.

holyroller · 07-23-2003, 12:29 AM

Books. Read them. You will learn stuffs. Good stuffs.

AccardoOutfit29 · 07-23-2003, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro
Why do people put so much stock in them? All of them have flaws and most (NOT ALL) are developed by likeminded individuals and the current ones will die off in a few years.

If if was that easy to determine the best/worst players then being a GM would pay nothing and anyone can do it.

This board is one of the better ones for people throwing the super stats at me (RC...winshares..VOPR) whenever I debate a players value and such and I really dont know lot about them.

But why are they so valued and taken so strongly, I mean why is the Winshare the choice stat when decideing the best players in the league by the "statheads"

Brought to you by the creator of This Product

Skipaway · 07-23-2003, 12:34 AM

If you don't understand win shares, run created or stuff like that, of course you'll feel doubt and threatened. The key is to love, care and respect. Don't let the frustration confuse you. Go find someone nice and knowledgeable to have it explained to you. We can all be friends.

Plutoro · 07-23-2003, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
Because it takes all those other stats into consideration.

But whos to say that they put the correct value on them.

What makes stat A more valuble then stat B.

Its all based on the feelings of today, OBP and HR are more valuble then BA and doubles.

I was on a debate on another board about Ichiro Suzuki. He's a guy that the stat-heads rip apart but I do like. I dont think that he is an elite OF or anything. He simply listed off win-share totals and another similar stat calculator then said I simply wont accept statistics.

Well I dont agree with 1 # value determing a guys worth..

I mean I would like to understand why these 1 # values that detemine a players worth have gotten so popular and why there so poular.

crackpott · 07-23-2003, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AccardoOutfit29
Brought to you be the creator of This Product

Ugh. I remember that thread. I put a lot of time and research into that thread...

holyroller · 07-23-2003, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro
But whos to say that they put the correct value on them.

What makes stat A more valuble then stat B.

Its all based on the feelings of today, OBP and HR are more valuble then BA and doubles.

No, it is not based on "feelings." It is based on objective empirical data. Study after study has shown that teams who get on base and hit for power score more runs than teams that do not. It is apparent from your posts you simply have not read enough to understand them. That's fine. But if you don't understand them, don't knock them down. Learn about them and if you find they have flaws, then point them out. As it is, you come off as willfully ignorant.

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 12:50 AM

Sorry, but RC and Win Shares aside, it's not too difficult to see why OBP is better than BA and why HR are better than 2B.

AccardoOutfit29 · 07-23-2003, 12:51 AM

I agree with the cultured perspective of Awolf and the poo eater.

Skipaway · 07-23-2003, 12:58 AM

Does Plutoro fit the profile of an internet troll? The arguments he started were set out to upset certain kind of people for sure. And he didn't seem to care about the criticisms or suggestions much, just insist on his original ideas. Not very negotiatable. No hurting comments like common trolls though.

Or is he just stuck on old sports cliches?

crackpott · 07-23-2003, 12:58 AM

for what it's worth, modern stats aren't claiming homeruns vs. doubles. It's slugging percentage vs. the both of them.

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crackpott
for what it's worth, modern stats aren't claiming homeruns vs. doubles. It's slugging percentage vs. the both of them.

That's because you don't need "modern stats" to know which one is better.

Plutoro · 07-23-2003, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by holyroller
Study after study has shown that teams who get on base and hit for power score more runs than teams that do not.

Really, im shocked...

Any system can win, ANY. You can be a light power hitting, great defence team that runs alot and you can win. If you do not think that you are ignorant and need to watch a baseball game.

Im sorry but you come off as a Bill James kiss ass, no offence as you actually are rather knowledgable.

I do actually understand the majority of the systems, and I do not agree with what is favored over what. You need a mix of everything to be extremely successful.

So to simply dismiss any argument against a player you like by saying he has x amount more win shares in a season would make you the ignorant one.

i will GURANTEE you that in 10 years a new favorite stat will apear and OPS will now be considered obsolete. It has happnened countless times before.

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipaway
Does Plutoro fit the profile of an internet troll? The arguments he started were set out to upset certain kind of people for sure. And he didn't seem to care about the criticisms or suggestions much, just insist on his original ideas. Not very negotiatable. No hurting comments like common trolls though.

Or is he just stocked on old sports cliches?

I'm not sure about that yet. He seems genuine to me, but who knows.

Just in case, though... not my alias.

sixto · 07-23-2003, 01:04 AM

I still got absolutely zero discussion about whether a HR is correctly valued at twice as good as a double. I seriously doubt it.

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro
You need a mix of everything to be extremely successful.

You're missing the point. The A's have a limited payroll. They can't afford to have a mix of everything. So, they pick and choose the traits that are most undervalued.

Plutoro · 07-23-2003, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crackpott
for what it's worth, modern stats aren't claiming homeruns vs. doubles. It's slugging percentage vs. the both of them.

I know.

I do agree with certain base's of them, but the values placed on certain things over other things is what makes me skeptical. Why is a single equal to a walk? A walk cant score a guy from 2nd or advance the guy on 1st to 3rd. Im yet too see a bad throw or a misplay in the OF on a walk.

Dwolfson20 · 07-23-2003, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutoro
I know.

I do agree with certain base's of them, but the values placed on certain things over other things is what makes me skeptical. Why is a single equal to a walk? A walk cant score a guy from 2nd or advance the guy on 1st to 3rd. Im yet too see a bad throw or a misplay in the OF on a walk.

A single is not equal to a walk; it's better. Who told you that?

Plutoro · 07-23-2003, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwolfson20
You're missing the point. The A's have a limited payroll. They can't afford to have a mix of everything. So, they pick and choose the traits that are most undervalued.

That is complete and total bull.

They could differentiate a little if they wanted too, draft a player out of the Hatteberg mold or add a player that walks a little less but gets a few more hits/steals.

07-23-2003, 12:24 AM	#1
Plutoro Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 276	The superstats of today Why do people put so much stock in them? All of them have flaws and most (NOT ALL) are developed by likeminded individuals and the current ones will die off in a few years. If if was that easy to determine the best/worst players then being a GM would pay nothing and anyone can do it. This board is one of the better ones for people throwing the super stats at me (RC...winshares..VOPR) whenever I debate a players value and such and I really dont know lot about them. But why are they so valued and taken so strongly, I mean why is the Winshare the choice stat when decideing the best players in the league by the "statheads" __________________ SMLB-San Diego Padres: Pre-season 2003, currently rebuilding (year 1 of 5). 15-22 now, Klesko and Burroughs are hot each hitting .325 plus, Bartosh and Keisler both making strong cases for RoY in the early season.

07-23-2003, 12:29 AM	#3
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	Books. Read them. You will learn stuffs. Good stuffs. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

07-23-2003, 12:34 AM	#5
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	If you don't understand win shares, run created or stuff like that, of course you'll feel doubt and threatened. The key is to love, care and respect. Don't let the frustration confuse you. Go find someone nice and knowledgeable to have it explained to you. We can all be friends. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

07-23-2003, 12:50 AM	#9
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	Sorry, but RC and Win Shares aside, it's not too difficult to see why OBP is better than BA and why HR are better than 2B. __________________

07-23-2003, 12:58 AM	#11
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Does Plutoro fit the profile of an internet troll? The arguments he started were set out to upset certain kind of people for sure. And he didn't seem to care about the criticisms or suggestions much, just insist on his original ideas. Not very negotiatable. No hurting comments like common trolls though. Or is he just stuck on old sports cliches? __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest. Last edited by Skipaway; 07-23-2003 at 01:28 AM.

07-23-2003, 12:51 AM	#10
AccardoOutfit29 All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 531	I agree with the cultured perspective of Awolf and the poo eater.

07-23-2003, 12:58 AM	#12
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	for what it's worth, modern stats aren't claiming homeruns vs. doubles. It's slugging percentage vs. the both of them. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

07-23-2003, 01:04 AM	#16
sixto Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,271	I still got absolutely zero discussion about whether a HR is correctly valued at twice as good as a double. I seriously doubt it.