Combining historical and fictional

[jdw31158]

If I start a historical season, say 1885, and run it for a few seasons, can I add a fictional major league to complete with the existing league? Or will it screw everything up? If I did that, would the American League still show up when it's supposed to?

[Trebro]

Sadly, until you hit 1901, OOTP's historical leagues aren't historical. Because the game doesn't handle transitioning between 1 sub league and 2 sub leagues very well, the game creates a second sub league, going back to 1871, whether there was an alternative league (such as the American Association or Players League) or not. So if you do create a historical starting then, it will give you an "American" League right away, not when it actually appeared.

That said, adding a fictional league won't do anything to disrupt the historical one. However, fictional pitchers tend to be a ton better than real-life pitchers in the game, I've found (not by careful study, just looking at all-time rankings when I test things). I believe others have noticed this as well. So if you do add fictional, if they are allowed to trade and sign people between the leagues, you may find historical pitchers (and to a lesser degree, batters) won't be the tops for you.

The main reason I kinda veered away from this is when I was looking at players and how they were doing--I'd only ever check the "names I know" which meant "What's the point of these fictional leagues/players?" --for me. You may have a different experience Good luck!

[jdw31158]

Ah, okay, thanks! That would be a cool additional to future versions. Historical leagues showing up when appropriate, then having to deal with players jumping from league to league. 19th century version of free agency, I guess.

[Trebro]

Originally Posted by jdw31158

Ah, okay, thanks! That would be a cool additional to future versions. Historical leagues showing up when appropriate, then having to deal with players jumping from league to league. 19th century version of free agency, I guess.

It would be awesome, but unlikely. The overwhelming majority of folks play modern mlb stuff. To some degree I understand, as playing no free agency, no draft, no minors takes away a lot of the gm duties that make the game so interesting and complex.

[BradC]

As Trebro says, that is indeed unlikely. Most people don't play historical, according to the user data we have, and of those who do, most don't play 19th century baseball.

While it would be nice to make 19th century baseball function in the game just like it did in real life, it's one of those cost/benefit things: We don't see the point in putting resources into something that will be of interest to a tiny fraction of our customer base.

That said, as we grow and add even more people to our team, maybe one day one of them will take this on a side project and make it happen. Who knows. But until then, we can't do it with the resources we have.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by BradC

As Trebro says, that is indeed unlikely. Most people don't play historical, according to the user data we have, and of those who do, most don't play 19th century baseball.

While it would be nice to make 19th century baseball function in the game just like it did in real life, it's one of those cost/benefit things: We don't see the point in putting resources into something that will be of interest to a tiny fraction of our customer base.

That said, as we grow and add even more people to our team, maybe one day one of them will take this on a side project and make it happen. Who knows. But until then, we can't do it with the resources we have.

Wouldn't more people play 19th century ball if it was configured properly? i have started at 1871 in several leagues but i have had to manually set it up so it was correct. i hat playing with the Al coming in from day 1 and i despise that you guys bring in the White Sox in 1882.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by The Game

Wouldn't more people play 19th century ball if it was configured properly?

Good job pointing out potentially bad logic.

You have to be careful in how you interpret your user data. Sometimes people don't use a particular feature or mode because it's not implemented well.

It's also important to go deeper than mere usage analytics and conduct additional research to understand how usage matches demographics and buying behavior.

For example, how many users who don't play historical are casual or transient customers vs. long-time veteran customers who who have helped buy and support the product for years? And what about fictional gaming with all the options that were made possible by the development of the historical engine and features? Or how about current MLB vs. fictional vs. historical and how that compares with actual repeat purchases over multiple years?

The historical mode was a huge part of OOTP's success in becoming one of the top sports sims and attracting a core fan base by converting them from using other products. Without the prospect of historical play and the many features and options that emerged out of it, I would bet that a sizable portion of the core customer base would have never materialized, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[BradC]

Those are valid points, Charlie. We'll have to dig deeper into that, but I wouldn't be shocked if interest in 19th century baseball is still a small % of those who like to play historical.

However, if most people don't play historical, according to our data, what's holding them back? I seriously doubt it's the way 19th century baseball functions -- And if that's the case, then what other element of historical play is lacking for them?

Or are they truly uninterested in it?

[Charlie Hough]

I think it stands to reason that historical play will naturally be less popular because playing the current MLB is more relevant to games and coverage that people can watch every day.

But baseball sims have traditionally built a solid portion of their audience based on historical play, and there seems to be no doubt that products like Strat-O-Matic, Action! PC Baseball, Diamond Mind, and APBA continue to get core business from the historical market.

From what I've heard, there have been many historical players who've tried OOTP, but they left and went back to those other games for various reasons, including the complexity of setting up and running games. It's a little overwhelming for old school guys that are used to much simpler sims that don't have a lot of fictional and customization options. I think another important factor is continuing to improve and deliver a single-season replay mode and to build some kind of mode that makes it much easier to just run a single series like a 'what if' match-up between two different World Series teams from different eras.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by BradC

However, if most people don't play historical, according to our data, what's holding them back? I seriously doubt it's the way 19th century baseball functions -- And if that's the case, then what other element of historical play is lacking for them?

Or are they truly uninterested in it?

I hate having to set it up so, although i have played pre 1900 several times, I tend to start at 1901 with full history so it is accurate. We like our accuracy. There were many different rules, styles of play and leagues that OOTP can not or does not reflect. I think you would see more people play pre 1900 baseball if it started as one subleague then evolved into MLB in 1901. Adding the AA, UL, PL and whatever other leagues I am forgetting. How many people add the FED or PCL or Negro leagues? I doubt too many because it takes time to set it up accurately.
Would also be nice for fictional historical leagues to reflect real historical. While I love my reboot of the American Baseball Fed it is frustrating having non whites in baseball before 1947 (not counting those who played in AA before 1900.) Would have been nice to set it up without having to use Questdog's set which i would have to undo each time i load a different league.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by Trebro

Sadly, until you hit 1901, OOTP's historical leagues aren't historical. Because the game doesn't handle transitioning between 1 sub league and 2 sub leagues very well, the game creates a second sub league, going back to 1871, whether there was an alternative league (such as the American Association or Players League) or not.

That is not the only problem. I think the real problem is the game does not auto-contract well. It handles new teams well but it doesn't handle teams going away well. After 1902 or so that isn't a problem. I think there is debate if the Baltimore Orioles actually moved or disbanded. Prior to that contractions happened just as much as expansions. At least one teams folded almost every season prior to 1892 then another round of folds happened in 1900.

When I had a modded DB from a previous version that had the actual contraction and expansion I had major problems from folded teams. When the DB no longer had the team, it would go away but the players would not be released. So player's contracts were still owned by defunct teams. You had to find a way to get to the folded team to release its players.

I don't remember if I tried to put new leagues in the DB or not. Either way I never got to the years when a second subleague would be added so I don't know if the engine can handle that. I do know it mess with the history a bit. If you add a second subleague it won't show the winners of the league prior to the second subleague. My solution is to go with the 1930's notion that modern baseball didn't begin until 1901, good reasons for using some time around that as a basis. Therefore I create a new league in 1901 that merges the old NL with the AL.

There is good reason to think modern baseball didn't start until the 1890's at the earliest. That is when overhand pitching was allowed and our modern rules were adopted. 1901 is point where there is the start of the second modern league and most rules we have today were codified. The other point is that the 4 man pitching rotation starts to become standard after the roster expansions of the new AL/NL agreements so you don't have the record for pitching wins at something insane like 60 from back in the day when there was just one 1 pitcher.

Back to the OP. No it won't mess up your game. If you don't want the fictional players in the real player league you can check do not allow free agents to leave the league. When I play my fictional universe that expands historically, I do this for the negro leagues. If you are using reserve clause rules you have to ucheck that box to see the option but the options still apply when you recheck the reserve clause era box.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by The Game

I hate having to set it up so, although i have played pre 1900 several times, I tend to start at 1901 with full history so it is accurate. We like our accuracy. There were many different rules, styles of play and leagues that OOTP can not or does not reflect. I think you would see more people play pre 1900 baseball if it started as one subleague then evolved into MLB in 1901. Adding the AA, UL, PL and whatever other leagues I am forgetting. How many people add the FED or PCL or Negro leagues? I doubt too many because it takes time to set it up accurately.

Because the number of teams is small it is really not hard to set up accurately if you have done it before. The hard part is figuring it out. The bigger problem is maintenance. Every team fold, league expansion, new team replacing an old, rule changes (mostly roster sizes), and new league must be done manually. This is how I do it.
Start with the real NA in 1871
In the offseason of 1872
1. check the spreadsheet for name changes, new stadium, teams folding, teams entering the league (every year this is done)
2. Check my other spreadsheet for rule changes like roster size, trade deadline, and waivers (really only after bigger rosters in 1910 I keep rosters to 15 man then +1 for each increase in rotation size)
3. Apply changes
4. If the new number of teams in the league > create roster limit * increase in teams free agents to make sure we have enough players. I use bench players for creation so as not to inflate talent and keep the new teams weak.
5. Clear reserve rosters to allow free agents not on active roster to be signed by teams (sort of enforcing the reserve clause that teams can only protect X players granted this is a lot more reserve players than historical for a while.
6. Turn commissioner off so my budgets apply and sign free agents/scout.
Preaseason
Load schedule and adjust games for next season (mainly so I check the financials next season and the estimator shows the numbers for the games played.
Season
Play
Off season 1873 repeat process.
Offseason prior to 1876
Additional steps
1. Create National league with just Cinci and Louisville. Make sure you put something after the date created for the league to start so you can adjust league start date to 1876. I usually put 12/31 of the current year in the wizzard.
2. Hold NL draft for the two teams click assign fictional financials.
3. Make NA cuts but leave the NL teams.
Preseason
1. Move teams remaining from NA to NL
2. Delete NA This is important because for some reason if you don't run a league until pre-season the rewards don't get recorded in history.

1882
Add AA no teams need to be moved so it is a bit easier
1884
add UA Create association for AA and NL so the 19th century world series can be held.
1885 offseason
move St Louis Maroons to NL
Cut all UA players and check prevent AI roster moves
preseason delete UA

1890
normal steps plus create the PL.
I go crazy with this one. I have a spreadsheet showing players (listed by position) that move from the AA and NL to PL. I manually move players from NL and AA teams to the PL that match the position and team.

Instead of the wizzard I just create a AAA league for the PL and change the settings to major league. I create enough bench free agents to fill the league.

1891
Off season
Move all PL players back to NL and AA. Long process I record who I move and move them back. Move Boston and Philadelphia to AA (AA Phil with the same name disbanded and PL Philadelphia became the new athletics.

Release all other PL players check no AI roster moves
Preseason delete PL league

1892
Offseason
Move appropiate teams to the NL (can be done preseason alternatively)
Clear rosters of left over AA teams
Click no AI roster moves for remaining AA teams.
preseason delete AA

1901
Form MLB. In the wizzard create the AL
Since you have to go to preseason to record awards I wait until then to move the NL teams.
Preseason
Create subleague 2 move NL teams to MLB subleague 2
Delete NL

From then on the maintenance gets easier. Mostly name changes and stadium changes until expansion.

Other things I do
1914 create Federal
I tend not to play with minors until the Branch Rickey era
so
1892 create Eastern and Western Leagues as AAA Southern Association as AA allow players to be purchased. I use the American baseball files I downloaded from this site for team names and graphics.
1900 Add Indiana-Illinois-Iowa league (AA)
1902 Add Texas League
1903 Pacific Coast League (AAA) Central League (A) Northern League (R)
1904 South Atlantic League (AA)
1910 Appy
1919 FSL
1923 NYP
and so on

The biggest problem here is how to switch from independent minors to team owned minors. The biggest question is when. If you begin with the first clubs only St. Louis and Detroit will have a minor league club. This is problematic because all team reserve rosters go away when you affiliate a minor. So you either A have to change rosters to 40 or B affiliate later when all teams have a minor club or C give some teams minor clubs early.

Also 1920 Negro Leagues instead of disbanding I change the name so the players don't become free agents causing early integration.

Setup is easy. Maintenance is a real PITA so a league like this takes a lot more time prior to 1901 than after. This is certainly not setup and play happily ever after. The game mechanics are optimized for post 1901 really post 1930's game play. Although you have the option to play this way, it was the intent of the engine and lots of things are going to have to be manually. No autopilot here.

[Trebro]

Yeah, mirroring 19th century baseball can be done, but you are really working for it. And any screw up on your part makes it back up time. I love that it is an option, but peronally, I am inclined to start at 1901 from now on, or even pushing newer rules back in time. Much less fiddling.