Platooning outfielders - no, not what you think! - Page 2

BIG17EASY · 12-29-2014, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number4

Yeah, RF is usually harder, because you need a better arm. Sorry, but the wikipedia article is not going to cut it this time, because I want to know where the better range with equal arms goes and if it makes sense to switch them around.

It goes where you think it should go, really. But the consensus around baseball is that better range goes in right field.

RchW · 12-29-2014, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

who's that?

Cespedes, who is a marginal or average fielder at best. His arm only plays well if he gets to the ball and throws it to the right base That applies to anyone.

Josh Reddick is a slightly better overall player and better fielder. In this case his arm does not enter into the correct decision to play him at RF.

BIG17EASY · 12-29-2014, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Cespedes, who is a marginal or average fielder at best. His arm only plays well if he gets to the ball and throws it to the right base That applies to anyone.

Josh Reddick is a slightly better overall player and better fielder. In this case his arm does not enter into the correct decision to play him at RF.

No, but if he threw like Bernie Williams or Johnny Damon, he wouldn't be able to play right. You need good arm strength to play right. Doesn't need to be elite.

RchW · 12-29-2014, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

No, but if he threw like Bernie Williams or Johnny Damon, he wouldn't be able to play right. You need good arm strength to play right. Doesn't need to be elite.

That's right. His arm is good enough. I don't know what else you thought I meant.

BIG17EASY · 12-29-2014, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

That's right. His arm is good enough. I don't know what else you thought I meant.

I thought that the way you worded the part that I bolded could've been misleading to some who are learning the logic in outfield defense. His arm does factor into the decision to play him in right in that it's good enough for him to play there while not being elite or the best on the team at the time. There are just other factors that play a bigger role in the decision.

Number4 · 12-30-2014, 10:39 AM

Thanks BIG17EASY for the good explanation

rpriske · 12-30-2014, 11:45 AM

I think what is misleading about 'arm' vs 'range' when playing RF (for that throw to third) is that arm only says how good you are at throwing once you HAVE the ball. If you have worse range and therefore reach the ball later than you would have if you had better range, then the arm strength is playing from a disadvantage.

Your ability to throw out runners includes range.

endgame · 12-30-2014, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpriske

I think what is misleading about 'arm' vs 'range' when playing RF (for that throw to third) is that arm only says how good you are at throwing once you HAVE the ball. If you have worse range and therefore reach the ball later than you would have if you had better range, then the arm strength is playing from a disadvantage.

Your ability to throw our runners includes range.

It would be interesting to compile 3-4 years worth of season data and sort by OF and Assists, then examine the range and arm combination of the leaders.

BIG17EASY · 12-30-2014, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endgame

It would be interesting to compile 3-4 years worth of season data and sort by OF and Assists, then examine the range and arm combination of the leaders.

Quite often you'll find that the assist leader or a large amount players in the top 10 will have a weak arm and/or range. Teams are more likely to run on inferior outfielders, giving those players significantly more chances to throw out runners over the course of a full season. Pat Burrell finished in the top 5 in outfield assists in the NL a whopping eight times, including leading the league twice, and it was no secret that it was the result of teams constantly running on him because of his weak defensive skills.

USF · 12-30-2014, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

You want the better overall defender in right because it's much easier to go first-to-third or home-to-third when the ball is hit to right field. Yes, a stronger arm helps stop runners from doing that, but getting to the ball quickly, fielding it in proper position to throw, taking the right angles all play a factor in that.

A ball hit into the left field corner can be bobbled or kicked around and it's still likely to be a double only and only fast runners will score from first. A ball hit into the corner in right that's bobbled or kicked around will often end up with the batter on third and most runners scoring from first, unless they run like Adam Dunn.

Same applies for runners tagging up and going to third on a fly ball. How many times a year does that happen on fly balls to left? A handful? It happens fairly often (although only prudent with no outs or if the ball is very deep) when the ball his hit to right.

That's why it's important to have your best overall defender in right. It's also why a guy with a great arm may not play right field.

I did not understand your last sentence, did you mean you want a great arm in RF? I think you do for the reasons you stated above. Jesse Barfield and Dwight Evans were two of the best alltime at having great ARMS in RF.

RchW · 12-30-2014, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USF

I did not understand your last sentence, did you mean you want a great arm in RF? I think you do for the reasons you stated above. Jesse Barfield and Dwight Evans were two of the best alltime at having great ARMS in RF.

But a great arm with limited fielding skills a la Cespedes is the reason he has never played RF and should not. The Red Sox may change that in 2015.

Number4 · 12-31-2014, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

But a great arm with limited fielding skills a la Cespedes is the reason he has never played RF and should not. The Red Sox may change that in 2015.

Unlikely, they have traded him to the Tigers.

USF · 12-31-2014, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

But a great arm with limited fielding skills a la Cespedes is the reason he has never played RF and should not. The Red Sox may change that in 2015.

Agreed those guys usually end up in LF or DH

RchW · 12-31-2014, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number4

Unlikely, they have traded him to the Tigers.

Oops.

rpriske · 12-31-2014, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Quite often you'll find that the assist leader or a large amount players in the top 10 will have a weak arm and/or range. Teams are more likely to run on inferior outfielders, giving those players significantly more chances to throw out runners over the course of a full season. Pat Burrell finished in the top 5 in outfield assists in the NL a whopping eight times, including leading the league twice, and it was no secret that it was the result of teams constantly running on him because of his weak defensive skills.

Right. Most assists does NOT equate to best arm.

BIG17EASY · 12-31-2014, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

But a great arm with limited fielding skills a la Cespedes is the reason he has never played RF and should not. The Red Sox may change that in 2015.

Yes, this is what I meant (minus the Red Sox part

). Thanks, Rich.

Number4 · 12-31-2014, 10:50 AM

Red Sox want a plus defender in right field anyway, because it is quite spacious out there.

MBarrett · 12-31-2014, 11:42 AM

Just start listing the all-time greatest arms. You'll quickly see a trend. There's obviously a reason for that.

RchW · 12-31-2014, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBarrett

Just start listing the all-time greatest arms. You'll quickly see a trend. There's obviously a reason for that.

Just list the best defensive LF/RF and you'll see a trend. I did. Good RF are just better athletes and fielders. What I get from the LF list is the large number of known bad arms as well as less fielding skills. That tells me that a good arm will play RF when your LF arm is bad. Consider Lou Brock. For most of his career the Cardinals ran out 3, 4, 5 warm bodies each year to play RF. Some may have had great arms but none appear on the RF list and I suspect that just being a better fielder than Brock was the only qualification required.

Teams play what they have. Ideally a RF has all the skills but if you are hiding someone in LF it doesn't matter.

Note the screenshot below should have Yaz at the top of LF he got cut by the 60% filter. Considering his strong arm it's probably a Fenway exception that he didn't play RF. There may be other players missing but I don't think it changes the picture we see.

BIG17EASY · 12-31-2014, 02:56 PM

Great post, Rich.

Fenway may be a bit of an outlier in terms of comparing some BoSox left fielders and right fielders. Because of the monster, playing left field takes a lot more skill than probably any other left field in the game. I don't know if it's been said or written about, but I suspect that played a factor in Yoenis Cespedes' short tenure in Boston. A quick look at advanced fielding stats on B-R shows he was SIGNIFICANTLY worse in games played in Fenway compared to on the road during his time with Boston. It's a small sample size, so perhaps he would've learned how to play the wall better, but it still probably played a role in his exit.

12-30-2014, 11:45 AM	#27
rpriske Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Spencerville, ON, Canada Posts: 26,627	I think what is misleading about 'arm' vs 'range' when playing RF (for that throw to third) is that arm only says how good you are at throwing once you HAVE the ball. If you have worse range and therefore reach the ball later than you would have if you had better range, then the arm strength is playing from a disadvantage. Your ability to throw out runners includes range. __________________ Rusty Priske Poet, Canadian, Baseball Fan ```````````````````````````````````````` Last edited by rpriske; 12-30-2014 at 03:01 PM. Reason: typo

12-30-2014, 10:39 AM	#26
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	Thanks BIG17EASY for the good explanation

12-31-2014, 10:50 AM	#37
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	Red Sox want a plus defender in right field anyway, because it is quite spacious out there.

12-31-2014, 11:42 AM	#38
MBarrett All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Canada Posts: 627	Just start listing the all-time greatest arms. You'll quickly see a trend. There's obviously a reason for that.

12-31-2014, 02:56 PM	#40
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	Great post, Rich. Fenway may be a bit of an outlier in terms of comparing some BoSox left fielders and right fielders. Because of the monster, playing left field takes a lot more skill than probably any other left field in the game. I don't know if it's been said or written about, but I suspect that played a factor in Yoenis Cespedes' short tenure in Boston. A quick look at advanced fielding stats on B-R shows he was SIGNIFICANTLY worse in games played in Fenway compared to on the road during his time with Boston. It's a small sample size, so perhaps he would've learned how to play the wall better, but it still probably played a role in his exit.