Baseball Strategy Question

akolexander · 12-09-2014, 10:51 AM

If anyone has read "The Book: Playing the Percentages" by Tom Tango, I'm interested in the theory of saving 0.42 runs by never letting the pitcher bat in the lineup. Is there a way to hook starting pitchers, or any pitcher for that matter in a game every time he comes up to bat? I've looked at the strategy section in the game and all i can come up with is either pitch counts (which is NOT what I am looking for as the pitcher might get through 1 inning or 3 innings before his turn to bat) or sliding the pinch hit for pitcher slider to max, but even still this doesn't give me the most reliable way of pinch hitting for the pitcher EVERY single time.

On a related note, is there a way to force a "second starter" to pitch in a game. THe idea behind never letting the pitcher bat is to have a second starter piggy backing the first starter until the next time the pitcher comes up in the order…how would go about selecting this in game

I absolutely love this game and
Any help would be GREATLY appreciated….

THANKS!

BIG17EASY · 12-09-2014, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akolexander

If anyone has read "The Book: Playing the Percentages" by Tom Tango, I'm interested in the theory of saving 0.42 runs by never letting the pitcher bat in the lineup. Is there a way to hook starting pitchers, or any pitcher for that matter in a game every time he comes up to bat? I've looked at the strategy section in the game and all i can come up with is either pitch counts (which is NOT what I am looking for as the pitcher might get through 1 inning or 3 innings before his turn to bat) or sliding the pinch hit for pitcher slider to max, but even still this doesn't give me the most reliable way of pinch hitting for the pitcher EVERY single time.

On a related note, is there a way to force a "second starter" to pitch in a game. THe idea behind never letting the pitcher bat is to have a second starter piggy backing the first starter until the next time the pitcher comes up in the order…how would go about selecting this in game

I absolutely love this game and
Any help would be GREATLY appreciated….

THANKS!

The only way to accomplish this would be to play out games yourself and make the moves yourself. There are no strategy settings that will make the AI do what you want.

akolexander · 12-09-2014, 11:03 AM

Hmmm…I feel like advancements should be made in the strategy department for people like me who want to experiment with all these crazy ideas but through simulation rather than playing out all the games.

maybe i'll post this in the suggestions for ootp16 section, thanks!

Bluenoser · 12-09-2014, 11:47 AM

The AL solved it by instituting the DH.

Also - this isn't meant to start a heated debate on whether the DH is right or wrong, just pointing out that it's an option if you don't want your pitchers hitting.

akolexander · 12-09-2014, 11:51 AM

I think its more of trying to find a novel way of winning in the NL. If nobody is doing it then you have that much more of an advantage over everyone else

Bluenoser · 12-09-2014, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akolexander

I think its more of trying to find a novel way of winning in the NL. If nobody is doing it then you have that much more of an advantage over everyone else

Like I said - I have zero interest in debating the topic.

I was just mentioning that the option exists.

BIG17EASY · 12-09-2014, 12:29 PM

I'd be curious to see what would happen if someone went through with this. I'm guessing there would be some instances of running out of players in high-scoring or extra-inning games when the pitcher's spot comes up to hit six or seven times (or more). Not to mention the need for a deeper pitching staff to handle games like that. I'm skeptical that a 25-man roster would be able to handle 162 games of this strategy.

akolexander · 12-09-2014, 12:39 PM

yeah, i agree, i dont know if a 25 man roster would be able to handle it, but the experiment would be fun.

In addition, most pitching staffs have trouble handling high-scoring or extra inning games anyways, having a hitter coming up to bat might still be advantageous.

Also this strategy might negate the effect of the "times through the order" findings that pitchers decrease effectiveness each successive time through the order!

Either way, yeah i want to try it, but don't want to have to play out every game lol.

akolexander · 12-09-2014, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Like I said - I have zero interest in debating the topic.

I was just mentioning that the option exists.

Oh i dont care about the relevance of DH in the mlb either! Wasn't looking to argue, i'm just interested in strategies

BIG17EASY · 12-09-2014, 01:13 PM

I haven't read that book, so I can't comment on it directly, but my biggest problem with this strategy is the idea of pulling my starter after an inning or two because my team scored a bunch of runs in the first two innings. Can you imagine the Dodgers pinch-hitting for Clayton Kershaw in the top of the second inning with a 6-0 lead? Or worse yet, pinch-hitting for him in the top of the first if they hit around?

I understand this may be an effective strategy in a certain game with a mediocre or weak starter, but overall, I don't think it's an effective way to win over an entire season.

akolexander · 12-09-2014, 01:19 PM

Thats exactly it, the book claims that this is only useful for like your 4th/5th starter, having clayton pitch is much for advantageous than any benefit derived from not batting him

BIG17EASY · 12-09-2014, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akolexander

Thats exactly it, the book claims that this is only useful for like your 4th/5th starter, having clayton pitch is much for advantageous than any benefit derived from not batting him

OK, I incorrectly assumed your OP meant that the book proposed this as a strategy for the entire season.

RchW · 12-09-2014, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I haven't read that book, so I can't comment on it directly, but my biggest problem with this strategy is the idea of pulling my starter after an inning or two because my team scored a bunch of runs in the first two innings. Can you imagine the Dodgers pinch-hitting for Clayton Kershaw in the top of the second inning with a 6-0 lead? Or worse yet, pinch-hitting for him in the top of the first if they hit around?

I understand this may be an effective strategy in a certain game with a mediocre or weak starter, but overall, I don't think it's an effective way to win over an entire season.

Wow this is amazing! Just this morning I played out a playoff game where I used one of my starters on 3-days rest in the 4th game of the NLCS being down 2-1. The exact scenario you describe happened and I gave it enough thought that I got another coffee. I don't like using SP on 3-days rest. I ended up not removing him as it was too easy an exploit.

Amazing co-incidence though.

BIG17EASY · 12-09-2014, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Wow this is amazing! Just this morning I played out a playoff game where I used one of my starters on 3-days rest in the 4th game of the NLCS being down 2-1. The exact scenario you describe happened and I gave it enough thought that I got another coffee. I don't like using SP on 3-days rest. I ended up not removing him as it was too easy an exploit.

Amazing co-incidence though.

You thought about pinch-hitting for him in the top of the 1st? Why?

Leo_The_Lip · 12-09-2014, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

You thought about pinch-hitting for him in the top of the 1st? Why?

Casey Stengel once pinch-hit for Moose Skowron in the first inning (Eddie Robinson doubled in two runs). His answer to this question was:

"Do you want me to manage to lose?"

BIG17EASY · 12-09-2014, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo_The_Lip

Casey Stengel once pinch-hit for Moose Skowron in the first inning (Eddie Robinson doubled in two runs). His answer to this question was:

"Do you want me to manage to lose?"

Moose Skowron wasn't a pitcher. And we all know Stengel did plenty of crazy things during his career.

RchW · 12-09-2014, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

You thought about pinch-hitting for him in the top of the 1st? Why?

Because he was the only SP I had confidence in. He won this game and the 7th game also on 3 day rest. I seriously considered letting one of the other underperformers try to nurse a 6 run lead to the 5th or 6th inning so that I could use him on regular rest the next day. Silly idea in hindsight.

BIG17EASY · 12-09-2014, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Because he was the only SP I had confidence in. He won this game and the 7th game also on 3 day rest. I seriously considered letting one of the other underperformers try to nurse a 6 run lead to the 5th or 6th inning so that I could use him on regular rest the next day. Silly idea in hindsight.

OK, I see the reasoning. I wonder if OOTP would've given him a stamina hit even though he wouldn't have thrown a pitch in the game.

OakDragon · 12-09-2014, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Because he was the only SP I had confidence in. He won this game and the 7th game also on 3 day rest. I seriously considered letting one of the other underperformers try to nurse a 6 run lead to the 5th or 6th inning so that I could use him on regular rest the next day. Silly idea in hindsight.

I have this niggling memory that I've seen that done before IRL, but I can't remember when.

Number4 · 12-09-2014, 08:25 PM

If I get several runs ahead in the top of the first, I'd pull my ace starter, DH or not.

I think you're unlikely enough to blow the lead that having your premium starter start another game gives you enough additional wins to compensate for the few games that your bullpen would blow that massive advantage, especially since that unl/sucky starter might give up additional runs anyway.

But the original strategy is shortsighted. Whats the point in pinch-hitting for your good starter, bases empty, 2 outs? Or if he's a good sac bunter with runners at first and second, none out? The small additional expected run value of PHing there and then will probably be less than the run value of using that PH in a higher-leverage situation. And you'll lose pitching strenght as well.

If there's a big opportunity, maybe go for it even early. But not without a good reason and I wouldn't trust the AI to do this.

12-09-2014, 10:51 AM	#1
akolexander Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 26	Baseball Strategy Question If anyone has read "The Book: Playing the Percentages" by Tom Tango, I'm interested in the theory of saving 0.42 runs by never letting the pitcher bat in the lineup. Is there a way to hook starting pitchers, or any pitcher for that matter in a game every time he comes up to bat? I've looked at the strategy section in the game and all i can come up with is either pitch counts (which is NOT what I am looking for as the pitcher might get through 1 inning or 3 innings before his turn to bat) or sliding the pinch hit for pitcher slider to max, but even still this doesn't give me the most reliable way of pinch hitting for the pitcher EVERY single time. On a related note, is there a way to force a "second starter" to pitch in a game. THe idea behind never letting the pitcher bat is to have a second starter piggy backing the first starter until the next time the pitcher comes up in the order…how would go about selecting this in game I absolutely love this game and Any help would be GREATLY appreciated…. THANKS!

12-09-2014, 11:03 AM	#3
akolexander Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 26	Hmmm…I feel like advancements should be made in the strategy department for people like me who want to experiment with all these crazy ideas but through simulation rather than playing out all the games. maybe i'll post this in the suggestions for ootp16 section, thanks!

12-09-2014, 11:47 AM	#4
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,164	The AL solved it by instituting the DH. Also - this isn't meant to start a heated debate on whether the DH is right or wrong, just pointing out that it's an option if you don't want your pitchers hitting.

12-09-2014, 11:51 AM	#5
akolexander Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 26	I think its more of trying to find a novel way of winning in the NL. If nobody is doing it then you have that much more of an advantage over everyone else

12-09-2014, 12:29 PM	#7
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	I'd be curious to see what would happen if someone went through with this. I'm guessing there would be some instances of running out of players in high-scoring or extra-inning games when the pitcher's spot comes up to hit six or seven times (or more). Not to mention the need for a deeper pitching staff to handle games like that. I'm skeptical that a 25-man roster would be able to handle 162 games of this strategy.

12-09-2014, 12:39 PM	#8
akolexander Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 26	yeah, i agree, i dont know if a 25 man roster would be able to handle it, but the experiment would be fun. In addition, most pitching staffs have trouble handling high-scoring or extra inning games anyways, having a hitter coming up to bat might still be advantageous. Also this strategy might negate the effect of the "times through the order" findings that pitchers decrease effectiveness each successive time through the order! Either way, yeah i want to try it, but don't want to have to play out every game lol.

12-09-2014, 01:13 PM	#10
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	I haven't read that book, so I can't comment on it directly, but my biggest problem with this strategy is the idea of pulling my starter after an inning or two because my team scored a bunch of runs in the first two innings. Can you imagine the Dodgers pinch-hitting for Clayton Kershaw in the top of the second inning with a 6-0 lead? Or worse yet, pinch-hitting for him in the top of the first if they hit around? I understand this may be an effective strategy in a certain game with a mediocre or weak starter, but overall, I don't think it's an effective way to win over an entire season.

12-09-2014, 01:19 PM	#11
akolexander Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 26	Thats exactly it, the book claims that this is only useful for like your 4th/5th starter, having clayton pitch is much for advantageous than any benefit derived from not batting him

12-09-2014, 08:25 PM	#20
Number4 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 460	If I get several runs ahead in the top of the first, I'd pull my ace starter, DH or not. I think you're unlikely enough to blow the lead that having your premium starter start another game gives you enough additional wins to compensate for the few games that your bullpen would blow that massive advantage, especially since that unl/sucky starter might give up additional runs anyway. But the original strategy is shortsighted. Whats the point in pinch-hitting for your good starter, bases empty, 2 outs? Or if he's a good sac bunter with runners at first and second, none out? The small additional expected run value of PHing there and then will probably be less than the run value of using that PH in a higher-leverage situation. And you'll lose pitching strenght as well. If there's a big opportunity, maybe go for it even early. But not without a good reason and I wouldn't trust the AI to do this.