Players Knowing their Worth

dougaiton · 07-17-2003, 12:21 PM

Do players have any sense of their own abilities when negotiationg a contract? If you were to sign a 1-star catcher coming off a 20 HR year, he would ask for less than a 3 star ctacher who may ahve had a terrible year at the plate etc. defensively. This makes sense in the full ratings mode, whereby a players ability is clear to see - but in reduced and talent only, wouldn't it be better if people negotiated on the basis of their statistics the year before?

Or does this happen to a degree already? Does anyone have any views?

Nukester · 07-17-2003, 12:34 PM

At one time the players salary was based more on ratings than anything else. I believe one of the earlier patches made a change so that actual stats count more towards what a player should be making than they once did, but I still think its based more on ratings. Hope that helps a little.

matskralc · 07-17-2003, 12:36 PM

It's mostly based on ratings, with some weight on stats. I've noticed this when working on extensions with guys. I can look at what a guy asks in June, and if he has a bad June and July, he's asking for less in August. Not a lot less, though, just a little less.

WLight · 07-17-2003, 04:30 PM

Arbitration seems frequently to give a lot of weight to stats, although from time to time I'll come across a guy asking for way more than his performance would indicate and I come to find out he has all these stars that he's not living up to. Lazy a-hole.

Darkheath · 07-17-2003, 05:36 PM

I would agree... this should actually be based entirely on stats. It should all work out tho', I mean a guy with better ratings will have better stats most of the time. Just not ALL of the time. It would also be interesting to see a slight (behind the scenes) performance jump in a guys final contract year. You know, he's pushing to get that better contract. This would open up some more strategic options. A team who has a shot at the division would be more inclined to pick up a guy in his last year knowing he's going to be playing his heart out to impress the team or the arbitrator.

Just a couple of ideas. But would really like to see this stat based. Also, would like to see a counter offer in negotiations. If you offer too low, he should let you know what it would take to stay, instead of getting "pissed" off so easily. I offered a guy $20mil/per season for 2years after pissing him off and he wouldn't even talk to me. He later accepted a $12mil contract in FA. He was so insulted that he took a $16mil pay cut?? I don't think so.

WLight · 07-17-2003, 05:45 PM

Yeah, it was nice when salaries got tweaked to reflect stats as well as just ratings, but I think there's still a way to go before it's as balanced as I'd like.

Long_Long_Name · 07-17-2003, 10:59 PM

They also take into account their previous contract.

I had this 3B that wouldn't sign with me, so I gave him 20 millions for a year, which he accepted. The following year, he was asking for $22,800,000! I edited his contract down to 1 million, and he was only asking for $4,800,000 afterwards.

dougaiton · 07-21-2003, 08:53 AM

I've been thinking more about this, and I worry as to how stats and stars etc. emphasise relative pay demands. I am currently runnign a short-season independent-style league where everyone's budget is under 20 million. All the players currently are AAA or AA standard. However, if the best hitter in the league has only ratings of 5 for av and HR, will he demand as much as A-Rod would in the MLB (considering his stats and relative value is the equivalent, and are inflated by facing weak pitchers and having weak teammates)?. Or will he realise his 'true worth'?

Has anyone had a situation like this? It seems the results might have implications for the financial system in OOTP. And how does a short season (82 games) affect it? Any ideas?

sebastian0622 · 07-21-2003, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkheath
If you offer too low, he should let you know what it would take to stay, instead of getting "pissed" off so easily. I offered a guy $20mil/per season for 2years after pissing him off and he wouldn't even talk to me. He later accepted a $12mil contract in FA. He was so insulted that he took a $16mil pay cut?? I don't think so.

Anyone ever played Front Office Football? OOTP could take a page from the negotiation process there. Negotiations there have the feel that you are going through an agent; you get something laid on the table of what a player wants, then you cut it down to what you want to offer, lay the offer out, and it gets accepted or rejected. If it gets rejected, you usually get a good idea as to how close you are, then you can re-offer. If you offer 3-4 times and they get rejected, the player usually walks.

On paper, that's kind of how OOTP works, but anyone who has played FOF know what I mean.

WLight · 07-21-2003, 04:59 PM

Yeah the negotiation system in OOTP is a little stringent (and not always logical, as darkheath has seen) but I don't mind it.

Sudy Nym · 07-21-2003, 06:51 PM

What annoys me is that I had an average C/1B go from a 6 in HR to an 8 in HR last sim, as he continues to grow into a potentials increase he had a while back. Before the sim, he was asking for under $1.5 million for an extension- now, he wants over $3 million. Just because he had that two-point increase.

Now, is that increase significant? Certainly, it is. But how does he know that he's more proficient at hitting homeruns, all of a sudden? Especially when he's only been my back-up so far this season. I don't think that we should be able to exploit players- when you know a player is very likely to increase his ratings in the near future, it's not really fair to re-sign him for cheap. Rookies and prospects have a built-in system, where they won't allow you to sign them for a long period of time. But veterans don't have such a system. On the other hand, it's certainly not fair that these minor increases register with a player when it comes to his contract demands, so quickly- I mean, $1,000,000 one week, and then two weeks later $3,000,000? I think that would be a good way to get a general manager to laugh at you in real life.

I too agree that demands should have even more to do with statistics. That's how it is in real life, isn't it? If, for example, Carlos Delgado only hits 31 homeruns in his contract year, he's not going to get the same kind of offer he would have had he hit 44- even if signing teams know that he likely has the ability to do better. Yes, "ratings" should and do come into it, somewhere- but I'll find that I'm frequently paying for an under-performing player's ratings. I also get some great deals where I shouldn't, for that matter- not when the player has put up such great numbers.

Heem Dream · 07-21-2003, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Long_Long_Name
They also take into account their previous contract.

I had this 3B that wouldn't sign with me, so I gave him 20 millions for a year, which he accepted. The following year, he was asking for $22,800,000! I edited his contract down to 1 million, and he was only asking for $4,800,000 afterwards.

You did'nt get an email from him about altering his contract did you?

Xpert7777 · 07-22-2003, 05:30 AM

....When you crumple out of your chair on to the floor and start banging it over and over with your fist, when you loaded the bases in a play-in game only to see it come to an end on a diving stop by their third baseman with E range which turned into a double play. This of course right after my girlfriend told me its just a game when my util man knocked a single to get us within one..............

Or when you stay up extra late and only catch 2.5 hours of sleep and are extremely tired at work the next day, but when you come home and really need sleep you just play more.

Sudy Nym · 07-22-2003, 05:46 AM

...When you're so tired from playing that you accidentally post in the wrong thread.

And you'd better not make me look like a fool by deleting your post. ;P

Xpert7777 · 07-22-2003, 11:54 AM

LOL you are right, I did post that on the wrong thread! Haha I just got done simming out about 10 games, haha I should have been in bed a couple hours ago, lol. When you get on that winning streak you just don't want to stop. Overall OOTP is probably bad for my health, heh, less sleep, forgetting to eat and drink......what a great game!

07-17-2003, 12:21 PM	#1
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	Players Knowing their Worth Do players have any sense of their own abilities when negotiationg a contract? If you were to sign a 1-star catcher coming off a 20 HR year, he would ask for less than a 3 star ctacher who may ahve had a terrible year at the plate etc. defensively. This makes sense in the full ratings mode, whereby a players ability is clear to see - but in reduced and talent only, wouldn't it be better if people negotiated on the basis of their statistics the year before? Or does this happen to a degree already? Does anyone have any views?

07-17-2003, 12:36 PM	#3
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	It's mostly based on ratings, with some weight on stats. I've noticed this when working on extensions with guys. I can look at what a guy asks in June, and if he has a bad June and July, he's asking for less in August. Not a lot less, though, just a little less. __________________ Well, they have a saying here in Texas ... but they probably don't have it in California, so never mind. OTBL - Pennsylvania Fightin' Amish ABC - Pittsburgh Puma OCHO - Pittsburgh Pirates EBU - Commissioner

07-17-2003, 05:36 PM	#5
Darkheath Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Denver Posts: 46	I would agree... this should actually be based entirely on stats. It should all work out tho', I mean a guy with better ratings will have better stats most of the time. Just not ALL of the time. It would also be interesting to see a slight (behind the scenes) performance jump in a guys final contract year. You know, he's pushing to get that better contract. This would open up some more strategic options. A team who has a shot at the division would be more inclined to pick up a guy in his last year knowing he's going to be playing his heart out to impress the team or the arbitrator. Just a couple of ideas. But would really like to see this stat based. Also, would like to see a counter offer in negotiations. If you offer too low, he should let you know what it would take to stay, instead of getting "pissed" off so easily. I offered a guy $20mil/per season for 2years after pissing him off and he wouldn't even talk to me. He later accepted a $12mil contract in FA. He was so insulted that he took a $16mil pay cut?? I don't think so. __________________ ... missed it by THAT much! - Maxwell Smart

07-17-2003, 10:59 PM	#7
Long_Long_Name Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Montréal Posts: 7,065	They also take into account their previous contract. I had this 3B that wouldn't sign with me, so I gave him 20 millions for a year, which he accepted. The following year, he was asking for $22,800,000! I edited his contract down to 1 million, and he was only asking for $4,800,000 afterwards. __________________ Beta Baseball. Join it!

07-21-2003, 08:53 AM	#8
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	I've been thinking more about this, and I worry as to how stats and stars etc. emphasise relative pay demands. I am currently runnign a short-season independent-style league where everyone's budget is under 20 million. All the players currently are AAA or AA standard. However, if the best hitter in the league has only ratings of 5 for av and HR, will he demand as much as A-Rod would in the MLB (considering his stats and relative value is the equivalent, and are inflated by facing weak pitchers and having weak teammates)?. Or will he realise his 'true worth'? Has anyone had a situation like this? It seems the results might have implications for the financial system in OOTP. And how does a short season (82 games) affect it? Any ideas? __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)

07-17-2003, 12:34 PM	#2
Nukester All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 1,923	At one time the players salary was based more on ratings than anything else. I believe one of the earlier patches made a change so that actual stats count more towards what a player should be making than they once did, but I still think its based more on ratings. Hope that helps a little.

07-17-2003, 04:30 PM	#4
WLight Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: CA Posts: 314	Arbitration seems frequently to give a lot of weight to stats, although from time to time I'll come across a guy asking for way more than his performance would indicate and I come to find out he has all these stars that he's not living up to. Lazy a-hole.

07-17-2003, 05:45 PM	#6
WLight Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: CA Posts: 314	Yeah, it was nice when salaries got tweaked to reflect stats as well as just ratings, but I think there's still a way to go before it's as balanced as I'd like.

07-21-2003, 04:59 PM	#10
WLight Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: CA Posts: 314	Yeah the negotiation system in OOTP is a little stringent (and not always logical, as darkheath has seen) but I don't mind it.

07-21-2003, 06:51 PM	#11
Sudy Nym Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Hill, ON Posts: 492	What annoys me is that I had an average C/1B go from a 6 in HR to an 8 in HR last sim, as he continues to grow into a potentials increase he had a while back. Before the sim, he was asking for under $1.5 million for an extension- now, he wants over $3 million. Just because he had that two-point increase. Now, is that increase significant? Certainly, it is. But how does he know that he's more proficient at hitting homeruns, all of a sudden? Especially when he's only been my back-up so far this season. I don't think that we should be able to exploit players- when you know a player is very likely to increase his ratings in the near future, it's not really fair to re-sign him for cheap. Rookies and prospects have a built-in system, where they won't allow you to sign them for a long period of time. But veterans don't have such a system. On the other hand, it's certainly not fair that these minor increases register with a player when it comes to his contract demands, so quickly- I mean, $1,000,000 one week, and then two weeks later $3,000,000? I think that would be a good way to get a general manager to laugh at you in real life. I too agree that demands should have even more to do with statistics. That's how it is in real life, isn't it? If, for example, Carlos Delgado only hits 31 homeruns in his contract year, he's not going to get the same kind of offer he would have had he hit 44- even if signing teams know that he likely has the ability to do better. Yes, "ratings" should and do come into it, somewhere- but I'll find that I'm frequently paying for an under-performing player's ratings. I also get some great deals where I shouldn't, for that matter- not when the player has put up such great numbers. __________________ Tomorrow's Stars Today Baseball League - Portland Beavers <=> WL Wild Card: '11, '14 <=> WL North Divisional Champions: '02, '04-'10, '12, '13, '15-'18 <=> Western League Champions: '04-'06, '09, '10, '13, '18 <=> TSTBL World Champions: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2018

07-22-2003, 05:30 AM	#13
Xpert7777 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Billings, Montana Posts: 159	....When you crumple out of your chair on to the floor and start banging it over and over with your fist, when you loaded the bases in a play-in game only to see it come to an end on a diving stop by their third baseman with E range which turned into a double play. This of course right after my girlfriend told me its just a game when my util man knocked a single to get us within one.............. Or when you stay up extra late and only catch 2.5 hours of sleep and are extremely tired at work the next day, but when you come home and really need sleep you just play more. __________________ Cabo San Lucas Toreros ABL Jersey Shore D'bags - THE BSA

07-22-2003, 05:46 AM	#14
Sudy Nym Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Hill, ON Posts: 492	...When you're so tired from playing that you accidentally post in the wrong thread. And you'd better not make me look like a fool by deleting your post. ;P __________________ Tomorrow's Stars Today Baseball League - Portland Beavers <=> WL Wild Card: '11, '14 <=> WL North Divisional Champions: '02, '04-'10, '12, '13, '15-'18 <=> Western League Champions: '04-'06, '09, '10, '13, '18 <=> TSTBL World Champions: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2018

07-22-2003, 11:54 AM	#15
Xpert7777 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Billings, Montana Posts: 159	LOL you are right, I did post that on the wrong thread! Haha I just got done simming out about 10 games, haha I should have been in bed a couple hours ago, lol. When you get on that winning streak you just don't want to stop. Overall OOTP is probably bad for my health, heh, less sleep, forgetting to eat and drink......what a great game! __________________ Cabo San Lucas Toreros ABL Jersey Shore D'bags - THE BSA